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  1. #631
    Reader of Stuff Hilden B. Lade's Avatar
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    Well the final Knightmare pretty much confirmed that
    spoilers:
    Batman feels his greatest fear is the possibility that he can't be happy or love and be Batman at the same time
    end of spoilers
    and now it's time to see if the remainder of King's run is reinforcing or disputing that notion.

  2. #632
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    While there will be moments of doubt, I suspect the end result will work towards disputing it.

  3. #633
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    Well the final Knightmare pretty much confirmed that
    spoilers:
    Batman feels his greatest fear is the possibility that he can't be happy or love and be Batman at the same time
    end of spoilers
    and now it's time to see if the remainder of King's run is reinforcing or disputing that notion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    While there will be moments of doubt, I suspect the end result will work towards disputing it.
    I really hope so! I want to see something different than what Snyder spent 5 years trying to support!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  4. #634
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    At this point, if we ever get any answers I will be surprised

  5. #635
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    The question is - how do you have Batman overcome the fear without changing Batman's entire reason for being Batman
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  6. #636
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    The question is - how do you have Batman overcome the fear without changing Batman's entire reason for being Batman
    I think it's possible - he just has to come to understand his mission in a slightly different way. Not just punish the guilty and prevent harm to the innocent, but build a family for the future. (I really want to sing the Tangled song here...)
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  7. #637
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Well, we know Fornes and Janin are on Fall and the Fallen (and hooray for Fornes!) Daniel is doing at least some of City of Bane...but honestly, I don't think Daniel can do all 8. I'm betting that Clay Mann will do at least one of those for Kite Man, as the interview hints, and I bet Weeks will come back at some point, either during City of Bane or during the 23 issues (83-105) that follow. I wouldn't be surprised if Weeks actually drew all of 105, in Porky's, with Batman and Kite-Man drinking together, as King keeps promising.
    The interview said that Fornes, Janin, Mann, and Daniel are gonna be the artists going forward, so I took that to assume they will all be doing the remaining main arcs, and he did say that one of the reasons for Knightmares existence was so that the main artists would have the time to catch up and finish the bigger issues. So I wouldn't be surprised if Daniel does end up doing all 6 of the main issues of City Of Bane, and like you mentioned Mann doing the 2 Kite Man issues, now that HiC is finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think it's possible - he just has to come to understand his mission in a slightly different way. Not just punish the guilty and prevent harm to the innocent, but build a family for the future. (I really want to sing the Tangled song here...)
    I agree with this, I've always seen the next evolution of Batman's vow would be something like we see in The Dark Knight trilogy, about fighting for a better future Gotham and the people who inhabit, rather than holding onto the sins of the past. I think all Bruce really needs is some kind of symbol of hope to prove to him that its possible, which could lead him to not necessarily let go, but move on in the right way.

    I do think the most interesting thing about the whole issue was the relationship between Bane and Thomas. I have no idea what is going on there, but I think in a good way. It makes me think that both of them feel like they are the ones in charge, or in complete control of the other, and it's just a matter of time of who comes out on time. Ultimately I think Thomas is working with Bane because he believes his idea of a ruled Gotham is the best way to "save it from itself", and wants his son to stop being Batman so much he'll go to these drastic measures to achieve it.
    Last edited by Inversed; 04-17-2019 at 11:29 AM.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  8. #638
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Excellent thoughts, Inversed. I like the ideas you have about Bane and Thomas a lot.

    I think Bruce needs to start seeing the Bat as that symbol. For all my problems with Snyder's run, the way he used the Bat symbol in Eternal and after Endgame (and during it - the inverse of the Batsymbol being so terrifying because the original is such a symbol of hope) was brilliant. (though I think Tynion has a better handle on it )
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  9. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    The question is - how do you have Batman overcome the fear without changing Batman's entire reason for being Batman
    It's in some ways a ridiculous question - Batman's capacity to love has been shown over and over again (Robin Reborn, Identity Crisis comforting Tim, Sasha, any number of times w/Selina, Cassandra Batgirl #50, etc). But he's always turned or focused that love into the vow - fighting crime with that person. For Bruce, it's really just a question of if the person he's found thinks that's enough.

    I'm going to watch Mask of the Phantasm now. A much more concise "Batman finds the girl and she's taken away from him" story.
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  10. #640
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    It's in some ways a ridiculous question - Batman's capacity to love has been shown over and over again (Robin Reborn, Identity Crisis comforting Tim, Sasha, any number of times w/Selina, Cassandra Batgirl #50, etc). But he's always turned or focused that love into the vow - fighting crime with that person. For Bruce, it's really just a question of if the person he's found thinks that's enough.

    I'm going to watch Mask of the Phantasm now. A much more concise "Batman finds the girl and she's taken away from him" story.
    But I think you highlight part of the problem King is examining - can Batman have a life that isn't consumed by his crusade? Can he be whole with the crusade being a job, and not his life?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  11. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    But I think you highlight part of the problem King is examining - can Batman have a life that isn't consumed by his crusade? Can he be whole with the crusade being a job, and not his life?
    The answer to the latter is no, if for no other reason than Batman holds a specific archetypical position in the DC that requires him to be the obsessive crusader. If you frame the question as one in which DC no longer has access to Batman as the obsessive human who wills himself into a position equal to Superman and Wonder Woman, it'll always be no for the main Batman titles (e.g. non-alt-universe tales). However, Batman can and does love. He takes his love to the same extremes he takes his vow - unyielding, on his own terms, and often nonsensical. He can have a life, though - he can prowl the rooftops with Selina, have a night out with Clark and Lois, grab burgers with his sons, work on a case with Barry. It's not the same life as a non-Batman Bruce would have, but it's got the silhouette of everyone else's normal life.

    Fears are irrational, so it's not necessarily surprising that Bruce is in the state of mind about this that he is, but he really can love and be Batman. The real question for Batman is always can the other people accept him as he is. Selina does accept him. She's fine with how he is. Selina's fear is that letting Bruce love her will ruin him - it was planted in her by Skeets (via Booster), by the Joker, by Holly, presumably in rapid succession and on purpose. But because Bruce is Bruce, he didn't notice the moral of the story of The Gift as Selina saw it (he wasn't there for the other two conversations, so that's not on him). Had either of them voiced their fears, they might not be in this situation (due to plot armor, Bane would have found another way to screw with them, of course).
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  12. #642
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Interesting take. Though I disagree. Largely because I don't think Batman should be equal to Wondy or Supes in any way except sales.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  13. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Interesting take. Though I disagree. Largely because I don't think Batman should be equal to Wondy or Supes in any way except sales.
    I actually agree with you, but until the Trinity concept (and Bruce sitting in front of monitors worrying about a perceived problem in the League) goes away, DC is gonna do what DC is gonna do (let a writer make Batman more pleasant, then have him make a heal turn*). The Dark Knight Rises's flaws not withstanding, I really enjoyed Nolan's concept of Batman in terms of his attitude, abilities, and the ultimate ending - of course, because it was close-ended, it could do things you can't in ongoing storytelling.

    *Morrison's run, then Death of the Family; Murderer/Fugitive (heal turn first, then accepts the bat-fam's help), then Identity Crisis; Morrison's JLA run, Tower of Babel; everyone banded together for Contagion/Legacy/Cataclysm, he runs away and then goes loner vigilante for the first half or so of NML; and so on and so forth
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  14. #644
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    You're probably right. I agree about the constant cycle of jerk/nice Bruce/Batman. At this point, I just try to seek out writers who are telling stories I enjoy about Batman and the Batfamily, and right now, King's one of them. I'm hoping he stays that way!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  15. #645
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    Totally agree. I think Knightmares has dragged a bit, but King's run has been largely enjoyable. I imagine when it's collected as part of an inevitable series of omnibuses, it'll read much better in large chunks.

    Completely unrelated, I miss Aaron Allston
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