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  1. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post

    I don't know for sure, but I would personally put Mask of the Phantasm right after Year One. King said on Word Balloon that you have to fudge the Joker's part of Mask of the Phantasm, because DC refuses to be specific on that, but if you have the Joker involved at all, that means it has to be after Year One, because the end of Year One is the first mention of the Joker in current timeline (as far as I can tell - of course, if you accept Zero Year as still canon, which MAY be the case given the solicits for War of Jokes and Riddles - though I don't think it has to be at all - then Joker's background is even more hard to piece together.)

    SNIP

    I hadn't thought of That! I could really see Claire turning on Thomas if she snaps out of Psycho Pirate's control.

    SNIP

    Awesome highlighting of parallels! Given how much time King has spent deliberately layering in parallels, I doubt that these Robin interactions are anything but purposeful! The buildup to Tim's reveal, and then his conversation with Damian, were my favorite part of this issue - and that's in an issue where Selina has her amazing monologue to Bruce!
    Mask takes place in essentially two time periods. The first has to be contemporaneous with Year One/Zero Year (did ZY get erased by Rebirth or something? - the "on the street" first meeting is definitely YO) unless they really only pick tiny pieces of the narrative to make canon. The latter part seems like it'd only make sense if it was more mid-career. Andrea's got to have been gone for awhile (ever if you pull the Joker out as the hitman, the latter time period has to allow for Bruce to get over his failed engagement, establish himself as Batman, the mob to track down Carl, and give Andrea time to lose her father then hatch her revenge plan).

    Claire's motivations are one of the more confusing parts of King's run right now. Was she in on the plot to kill her parents? Is any part of her origin from I Am Gotham true? If she's still under the thrall of Psycho Pirate, is that because Alfred didn't do his job in I Am Suicide? Or did she get re-turned later solely on the premise that her brother can be revived?

    Thanks!
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  2. #1067
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    Mask takes place in essentially two time periods. The first has to be contemporaneous with Year One/Zero Year (did ZY get erased by Rebirth or something? - the "on the street" first meeting is definitely YO) unless they really only pick tiny pieces of the narrative to make canon. The latter part seems like it'd only make sense if it was more mid-career. Andrea's got to have been gone for awhile (ever if you pull the Joker out as the hitman, the latter time period has to allow for Bruce to get over his failed engagement, establish himself as Batman, the mob to track down Carl, and give Andrea time to lose her father then hatch her revenge plan).

    Claire's motivations are one of the more confusing parts of King's run right now. Was she in on the plot to kill her parents? Is any part of her origin from I Am Gotham true? If she's still under the thrall of Psycho Pirate, is that because Alfred didn't do his job in I Am Suicide? Or did she get re-turned later solely on the premise that her brother can be revived?

    Thanks!
    That's true about the two time periods. I was thinking that the past period of Mask of the Phantasm being after Year One - but I think you could easily put it before, now that I think about it. (I've only watched it once, and quite recently - but not quite recently enough for it to be fresh).

    I doubt Claire was in on the plot - I think when Psycho Pirate attacked her and Hank, that was the last time she was acting without any influence by him and Bane (though honestly, since she got her powers from Bane, it's quite likely that she's been under Bane's influence from before the story starts).

    As for The Price...ugh. I really wish they hadn't done that story. It's a huge filler arc that ends without answering any questions, and without making much sense. I'm basically ignoring it. I don't ignore the Birds of Prey arc with Gotham Girl, but that doesn't actually matter that much to King's story.
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  3. #1068
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    I could go on and on about Claire, but do we think her talk with Batman before he proposed in 24 was part of Bane's plot, or was that more who she is w/o too much influence from PP? I generally think the second weakest part of King's whole run* is the absence of, basically, everyone of consequence on the "bad" side of the story between 25 and 50. Not that those issues are bad by any means (I love many of them), but the general flow of the overall story, when read all the way through, becomes very odd with no appearances by Claire, Bane, or Thomas at all in that range (heck, they barely appear in the 50-70 range). It's a very weird structure and I didn't find Thomas's description of Bane's machinations entirely satisfying. Maybe when we have the rest of it through Bat and Cat it'll seem less odd. Maybe?

    I do wonder if/how The Price will wrap back into the narrative. It's a pretty specific plot - that is, it seems more like something King would pitch as a possibility to Williamson, or something Williamson would run by King, rather than an entirely Williamson idea w/o input or approval from King - to just ignore entirely for the rest of the story.


    *Knightmares, while somewhat interesting, just KILLED the narrative flow - had it been 100 page OGN that came out instead of a series of issues, I'd have had fewer qualms, I imagine.
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  4. #1069
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Knightmares had a lot of independent elements going against it: It came after one hell of a cliffhanger; It had the awful crossover The Price inbetween that made if feel a month longer and Tom King didn't make it a secret that the arc was done to help pencilers with the bi-weekly schedule. Still, I think the arc wasn't filler but managed to move forward certain plot points in a more subtle way and it helped as an instropection in Batman's mind, which is something hard to do in the main title since Tom King doesn't use Voice Over in a traditional way

    About issue #76, I don't think it added more information that what we already knew, but I really liked that we got to see certain plot points we were talked about in the previous issue, like why superheroes don't interfere or what is the Batfamily doing. I liked that Captain Atom got to dialogue a little with Tim and that his sole role wasn't to get his ass kicked. That interaction was great and I appreciated every moment that was dedicated to heroes or villains. The story has been great so far and Tony S. Daniel, who I think can deliver some cool work but also some bad stuff, has been doing a great job so far
    Last edited by Chubistian; 08-07-2019 at 06:04 PM.
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  5. #1070
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I don't know for sure, but I would personally put Mask of the Phantasm right after Year One. King said on Word Balloon that you have to fudge the Joker's part of Mask of the Phantasm, because DC refuses to be specific on that, but if you have the Joker involved at all, that means it has to be after Year One, because the end of Year One is the first mention of the Joker in current timeline (as far as I can tell - of course, if you accept Zero Year as still canon, which MAY be the case given the solicits for War of Jokes and Riddles - though I don't think it has to be at all - then Joker's background is even more hard to piece together.)
    I was referring to the Andrea proposal part, because that was during the early vigilante period pre-Batman, which was also slightly explored in the first half of Year One. So I could easily see in their own continuity having Andrea leave, and then Year One takes place proper. The present plot of Mask Of The Phantasm obviously takes place after Year One (and presumably in this timeline also Zero Year, which King has referenced early in the run so I'd say its still canon). If I had to make a personal guess, I think sometime before War Of Jokes And Riddles would make the most sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katana500 View Post
    If I had to guess Catwoman and Batman will rally the family in the next few issues and launch an assault directly on Bane's city.

    I guess someone will snap Claire out of whatever mind control she is in - issue 5 said she would kill Batman - but what if the Batman she kills is Thomas Wayne!
    That's a possibility though it seems to me like we may end up getting a pure Batman/Catwoman vs. Bane face-off based on some of the more recent issue solicits. I still believe she's gonna end up dying sometime by the end of the story, she's been exerting herself way too much at this point its an eventuality. Also possible minor spoiler for a later issue: spoilers:
    #82's cover seems to imply Thomas' hands are alot deeper in this than it may seem, so I don't think he's biting the dust so soon.
    end of spoilers
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  6. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    I could go on and on about Claire, but do we think her talk with Batman before he proposed in 24 was part of Bane's plot, or was that more who she is w/o too much influence from PP? I generally think the second weakest part of King's whole run* is the absence of, basically, everyone of consequence on the "bad" side of the story between 25 and 50. Not that those issues are bad by any means (I love many of them), but the general flow of the overall story, when read all the way through, becomes very odd with no appearances by Claire, Bane, or Thomas at all in that range (heck, they barely appear in the 50-70 range). It's a very weird structure and I didn't find Thomas's description of Bane's machinations entirely satisfying. Maybe when we have the rest of it through Bat and Cat it'll seem less odd. Maybe?

    I do wonder if/how The Price will wrap back into the narrative. It's a pretty specific plot - that is, it seems more like something King would pitch as a possibility to Williamson, or something Williamson would run by King, rather than an entirely Williamson idea w/o input or approval from King - to just ignore entirely for the rest of the story.


    *Knightmares, while somewhat interesting, just KILLED the narrative flow - had it been 100 page OGN that came out instead of a series of issues, I'd have had fewer qualms, I imagine.
    I do think her talk with Batman in 24 was part of Bane's plan. I don't think he scripted it, but I think Bane knew where Batman's mind would be going, and he primed Claire with things like key words or ideas through the Pirate.

    I would agree that a bunch of the arcs between the proposal and the wedding are weaker - though I think there are still a heck of a lot of really great issues. But I wasn't particularly bothered by the Thomas monologue revealing "the plan so far."

    I hope the Price doesn't - I really, really didn't like it. I do think King pitched it, but Williamson just...made it a filler arc where nothing is learned or gained. Now, King DID use elements that Williamson executed in The Button, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he does use stuff from The Price, but I'm just not into it at this point.

    I know Knightmares was rough for a lot of fans - but I just adored it. Well, except for 61. And 66 was a bit of a weaker issue by itself - though read in context of what was going on, it's a bit stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    Knightmares had a lot of independent elements going against it: It came after one hell of a cliffhanger; It had the awful crossover The Price inbetween that made if feel a month longer and Tom King didn't make it a secret that the arc was done to help pencilers with the bi-weekly schedule. Still, I think the arc wasn't filler but managed to move forward certain plot points in a more subtle way and it helped as an instropection in Batman's mind, which is something hard to do in the main title since Tom King doesn't use Voice Over in a traditional way

    About issue #76, I don't think it added more information that what we already knew, but I really liked that we got to see certain plot points we were talked about in the previous issue, like why superheroes don't interfere or what is the Batfamily doing. I liked that Captain Atom got to dialogue a little with Tim and that his sole role wasn't to get his ass kicked. That interaction was great and I appreciated every moment that was dedicated to heroes or villains. The story has been great so far and Tony S. Daniel, who I think can deliver some cool work but also some bad stuff, has been doing a great job so far
    All of what you say is true about Knightmares, but here's why I adore it - because, for 10 issues, we got NOTHING from Batman about what he was feeling. And then we got 7 solid, poetic, abstract and yet specific, issues ALL about what Batman was feeling! And almost all of them just hit home really hard about "What Batman means" - which is a really important idea to me.

    Issue #76 is basically doing two things, for me - first, it illustrates why the Justice League is staying away, and second, it gives us a hint of where the Batfamily is after Bruce punched Tim. Both are really key points, I think, and the storytelling for both is nicely done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I was referring to the Andrea proposal part, because that was during the early vigilante period pre-Batman, which was also slightly explored in the first half of Year One. So I could easily see in their own continuity having Andrea leave, and then Year One takes place proper. The present plot of Mask Of The Phantasm obviously takes place after Year One (and presumably in this timeline also Zero Year, which King has referenced early in the run so I'd say its still canon). If I had to make a personal guess, I think sometime before War Of Jokes And Riddles would make the most sense.

    That's a possibility though it seems to me like we may end up getting a pure Batman/Catwoman vs. Bane face-off based on some of the more recent issue solicits. I still believe she's gonna end up dying sometime by the end of the story, she's been exerting herself way too much at this point its an eventuality. Also possible minor spoiler for a later issue: spoilers:
    #82's cover seems to imply Thomas' hands are alot deeper in this than it may seem, so I don't think he's biting the dust so soon.
    end of spoilers
    I could see what you're saying about the timeline being true - though I'm betting it'll either be really clear, or unclear because irrelevant.

    I think issue 84 is going to be a massive, massive fight. And I hope that 85 will be the Kite Man and Batman in a bar King's always promised.
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  7. #1072
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    So Andrea occurs before donning the cape and cowl, right? He 'threw himself back into the plan' after their relationship faltered and the possibility of just having a happy, normal life failed. But he had already world-traveled and trained and was back in Gotham, he just hadn't met Selina, gotten shot in the street and slumped in his father's study and seen The Bat yet. But that indicates that Bruce would have met Andrea BEFORE Selina.

    This isn't exactly world-shaking. He also knew Julie Madison earlier - before he went world-travel-training. And then dated her again very briefly in his Year One timeframe. And then again, more recently of course. For girls he knew BEFORE traveling the world, see also ... oh, Rachel Dawes if you want to get non-canon, Dawn Golden, Mallory Moxon. These women he knew before Andrea. I know a lot tends to get compressed into Year One. Including, somehow, magically, an entire "Zero Year".
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  8. #1073
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I would agree that a bunch of the arcs between the proposal and the wedding are weaker - though I think there are still a heck of a lot of really great issues. But I wasn't particularly bothered by the Thomas monologue revealing "the plan so far."

    I hope the Price doesn't - I really, really didn't like it. I do think King pitched it, but Williamson just...made it a filler arc where nothing is learned or gained. Now, King DID use elements that Williamson executed in The Button, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he does use stuff from The Price, but I'm just not into it at this point.

    I know Knightmares was rough for a lot of fans - but I just adored it. Well, except for 61. And 66 was a bit of a weaker issue by itself - though read in context of what was going on, it's a bit stronger.

    All of what you say is true about Knightmares, but here's why I adore it - because, for 10 issues, we got NOTHING from Batman about what he was feeling. And then we got 7 solid, poetic, abstract and yet specific, issues ALL about what Batman was feeling! And almost all of them just hit home really hard about "What Batman means" - which is a really important idea to me.
    My problem with the Thomas monologue isn't so much that it was used as a device to explain what had happened (I'd say half of it I'd already assumed), but that some of it seemed (a) beyond Bane's capabilities to manipulate (e.g. oh, the Riddler acquired and reprogrammed Skeets) and (b) beyond Thomas's ability to intuit (although since we don't know how Thomas is in this reality yet, that may be me assuming too much about what Thomas can know). It seemed all too Rube-Goldberg-ian for my tastes. I don't mind Bane master manipulator, but Bane omniscient planner is a bridge too far*.

    The Gotham revival plot in The Price seems unnecessary when Psycho Pirate is in the story - she's either cooperating under duress or she's still emotionally manipulated; you don't need both.

    I enjoy parts of Knightmares and get what King was going for, but it didn't entirely succeed for me. Part of it was starting with the Master Bruce character (who sucks, and who doesn't make sense with the rest of the narrative nearly as well), part of it was it cut against the pacing King had established - Cold Days, the KGBeast arc, and the Tyrant's Wing were moving, then POOF. Bruce is becoming alienated from all his allies, then the jump forward to City of Bane basically skipped over the fallout with Gordon and Batman, the bat family realizing that Bruce wasn't crazy (well, more crazy) about Bane, etc. I would imagine, if Knightmares had been more like Morrison's Last Rites, where we popped out of the dream world for a few panels to see what was going on in the world outside, I'd have enjoyed it a lot more.

    Back to the patterns and greatest hits aspect of King's run (something I unabashedly love), I re-read I Am Gotham last night. The Calendar Man story from Rebirth is interesting - we know both Snyder and King wrote it, and I think a lot of people tend to think of it as mostly a Snyder story (setting up Duke's new status quo). The Calendar Man plot, though, really seems like more of a thesis for King's whole run. Calendar Man "dies" and is reborn anew slightly different, and Bruce tells Duke they have to be prepared for the new Calendar Man. This ties in with Morrison's advice to Snyder and King that you should write a death and a rebirth for Batman. The seasonal aspect can describe Bruce's journey, too (the rebirth is happening now while Catwoman is tending to him - we could probably mark out the seasons of Bruce in a few different ways, but I'd tend towards Spring from 1-24, Summer from 25-40, Fall from 41-50 (or maybe 59), then Winter is ongoing until Bruce wakes up and heads off to face Bane).

    The other interesting thing is that King is playing a bit with alternate Batmen types in a different way than Morrison did (first with Dick, then with Inc). Those were all men that were directly inspired by Batman. Hank/Gotham has the explicit Batman origin about to happen to him, then Batman shows up and he takes a different path. Master Bruce wants Bruce's origin and more or less gets it, but not because he wants to become Batman. Thomas and Bruce have, essentially, identical origins but dealt with them in decidedly different ways (even if they share cosmetic similarities). The point is somewhat similar, though - only Bruce can be Batman. No one else has the capacity to become Batman, no matter how much the circumstances seem similar or the individual is willing.

    *Hugo Strange betraying Waller, Batman coming to get Psycho Pirate, Selina leaving Bruce after the Booster and Joker stories and Holly conversation, Batman being hurt when Catwoman leaves are all on the "master manipulator" side of things. Gotham dying, Gotham Girl not rebelling at these machinations resulting in her parents' deaths, taking over Arkham w/o any evidence that very good cop Jim Gordon can find, anything about Skeets seems more on the omniscient side.
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  9. #1074
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    My problem with the Thomas monologue isn't so much that it was used as a device to explain what had happened (I'd say half of it I'd already assumed), but that some of it seemed (a) beyond Bane's capabilities to manipulate (e.g. oh, the Riddler acquired and reprogrammed Skeets) and (b) beyond Thomas's ability to intuit (although since we don't know how Thomas is in this reality yet, that may be me assuming too much about what Thomas can know). It seemed all too Rube-Goldberg-ian for my tastes. I don't mind Bane master manipulator, but Bane omniscient planner is a bridge too far*.

    The Gotham revival plot in The Price seems unnecessary when Psycho Pirate is in the story - she's either cooperating under duress or she's still emotionally manipulated; you don't need both.

    I enjoy parts of Knightmares and get what King was going for, but it didn't entirely succeed for me. Part of it was starting with the Master Bruce character (who sucks, and who doesn't make sense with the rest of the narrative nearly as well), part of it was it cut against the pacing King had established - Cold Days, the KGBeast arc, and the Tyrant's Wing were moving, then POOF. Bruce is becoming alienated from all his allies, then the jump forward to City of Bane basically skipped over the fallout with Gordon and Batman, the bat family realizing that Bruce wasn't crazy (well, more crazy) about Bane, etc. I would imagine, if Knightmares had been more like Morrison's Last Rites, where we popped out of the dream world for a few panels to see what was going on in the world outside, I'd have enjoyed it a lot more.

    Back to the patterns and greatest hits aspect of King's run (something I unabashedly love), I re-read I Am Gotham last night. The Calendar Man story from Rebirth is interesting - we know both Snyder and King wrote it, and I think a lot of people tend to think of it as mostly a Snyder story (setting up Duke's new status quo). The Calendar Man plot, though, really seems like more of a thesis for King's whole run. Calendar Man "dies" and is reborn anew slightly different, and Bruce tells Duke they have to be prepared for the new Calendar Man. This ties in with Morrison's advice to Snyder and King that you should write a death and a rebirth for Batman. The seasonal aspect can describe Bruce's journey, too (the rebirth is happening now while Catwoman is tending to him - we could probably mark out the seasons of Bruce in a few different ways, but I'd tend towards Spring from 1-24, Summer from 25-40, Fall from 41-50 (or maybe 59), then Winter is ongoing until Bruce wakes up and heads off to face Bane).

    The other interesting thing is that King is playing a bit with alternate Batmen types in a different way than Morrison did (first with Dick, then with Inc). Those were all men that were directly inspired by Batman. Hank/Gotham has the explicit Batman origin about to happen to him, then Batman shows up and he takes a different path. Master Bruce wants Bruce's origin and more or less gets it, but not because he wants to become Batman. Thomas and Bruce have, essentially, identical origins but dealt with them in decidedly different ways (even if they share cosmetic similarities). The point is somewhat similar, though - only Bruce can be Batman. No one else has the capacity to become Batman, no matter how much the circumstances seem similar or the individual is willing.

    *Hugo Strange betraying Waller, Batman coming to get Psycho Pirate, Selina leaving Bruce after the Booster and Joker stories and Holly conversation, Batman being hurt when Catwoman leaves are all on the "master manipulator" side of things. Gotham dying, Gotham Girl not rebelling at these machinations resulting in her parents' deaths, taking over Arkham w/o any evidence that very good cop Jim Gordon can find, anything about Skeets seems more on the omniscient side.
    You're not wrong that Bane's plot is fairly elaborate and hangs on a few threads that strain credulity in terms of "Bane couldn't possibly know 100% that it would happen." It probably would have been good if King had built in a point where the plan faltered, and then shown Bane improvising to get the plan back on track. But eh - I'm still on board.

    The Price as a whole was just unnecessary. I don't know why they didn't have some kind of inventory story planned, unless they were hoping that The Flash would get a bump and weren't worried at a dip from Batman.

    Master Bruce does pretty much suck. I'm kind of dreading him returning - and now that I think about it, he's probably showing up in Bat/Cat, which kinda sours me a tiny bit. But as I said before - the 10 issues following the Wedding were doing good plot work, especially with Tyrant Wing - but giving us nothing on what Bruce actually thought or felt. I was feeling that need desperately, so Knightmares was pretty much exactly what I was hoping for.

    Interesting point about Calendar Man - that part felt really "Snyder" to me - but you might be exactly right about the seasons! We'll have to see if Calendar Man comes back in the final bit - or maybe even in Bat/Cat! It felt to me that nothing was really touched on in King's main run from the Rebirth issue, which is why I didn't really try to make it fit (just like I don't try to make The Price, The Button, or Night of the Monster Men fit).

    It's interesting that you're taking "Only Bruce can be Batman" from what King's writing, since that's actually something I really hate about Snyder's run, particularly Superheavy and Metal (though I do really enjoy Superheavy as an arc). Perhaps it's because Snyder's Batman is explicitly said to be a dream, dead, fantasy, unable to have a real human life, whereas King's Batman is explicitly struggling with having those real, changing, evolving ideas - so I actually feel, for the first time, that I can be Batman myself, whereas Snyder's Batman is just too cocky, too untouchable and distant for me. And I also like a more fallible Batman - one who can fall and get back up. I know Snyder's Batman falls and gets back up - but it feels more like a cartoon bouncing back from a fall from Everest, instead of the fall we're getting in King. Though again, to be fair, King literally has a whole issue of Knightmares which is Bruce falling off a skyscraper into the sewers.
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  10. #1075
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    King writes a more human and passionate Batman. Snyder wrote a more aggressive and Bat-God version, focusing more on the supporting cast and their various coping mechanisms with having Batman in their lives. King's a novel, Snyder is mythology. Both have their place.
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  11. #1076
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    King writes a more human and passionate Batman. Snyder wrote a more aggressive and Bat-God version, focusing more on the supporting cast and their various coping mechanisms with having Batman in their lives. King's a novel, Snyder is mythology. Both have their place.
    I've also said this in other chats before, considering they always get compared, but when you really look at both of their executions and approaches, you see just how different they really are from each other.

    Snyder is someone where while there is an overarching continuity going on in his work, nearly every one of his stories are made to be standalone, like majority of the most famous Batman stories that take place in the middle of runs or ongoings, and can be enjoyed as such. You could read The Court Of Owls, or Death In The Family, or Zero Year, or Endgame, or Superheavy, or All-Star Batman, or Metal, etc. on their own and in any order and you'll be able to get by through how the content is presented.

    Meanwhile with King, it really is one giant story, with every mini arc building more thematically upon each other, and essentially acting as the next chapter like in a book. And while there are ones here and there that are standalone and work on their own, they aren't really as satisfying unless in the context of the whole run. Like I would say Zero Year works just as well on its own or connected to the rest of Snyder's story, while War Of Jokes And Riddles loses alot of its substance when consumed on its own.

    And this isn't saying one approach is better than the other, but that they are different and all have their place in seeing how it ends up appealing to you in the end.
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  12. #1077
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    King writes a more human and passionate Batman. Snyder wrote a more aggressive and Bat-God version, focusing more on the supporting cast and their various coping mechanisms with having Batman in their lives. King's a novel, Snyder is mythology. Both have their place.
    Interesting. I hadn't noticed Snyder really focusing on the supporting cast, outside of maybe Alfred.

    Agree that both have their place - I just definitely have my preference for King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I've also said this in other chats before, considering they always get compared, but when you really look at both of their executions and approaches, you see just how different they really are from each other.

    Snyder is someone where while there is an overarching continuity going on in his work, nearly every one of his stories are made to be standalone, like majority of the most famous Batman stories that take place in the middle of runs or ongoings, and can be enjoyed as such. You could read The Court Of Owls, or Death In The Family, or Zero Year, or Endgame, or Superheavy, or All-Star Batman, or Metal, etc. on their own and in any order and you'll be able to get by through how the content is presented.

    Meanwhile with King, it really is one giant story, with every mini arc building more thematically upon each other, and essentially acting as the next chapter like in a book. And while there are ones here and there that are standalone and work on their own, they aren't really as satisfying unless in the context of the whole run. Like I would say Zero Year works just as well on its own or connected to the rest of Snyder's story, while War Of Jokes And Riddles loses alot of its substance when consumed on its own.

    And this isn't saying one approach is better than the other, but that they are different and all have their place in seeing how it ends up appealing to you in the end.
    I can sort of see how Snyder writes in discrete arcs - my biggest problem is that nearly every single one of his conclusions is incredibly unsatisfying to me. I'm really hoping that King, when he hits 85 and then Bat/Cat 12, is not so.

    King uses what I've been calling "iterative storytelling" - it is, indeed, very novellistic - but it's also very typical in a lot of different storytelling media, where he uses a line or image or combination of the two over and over again, where it gains new context every time it appears. The obvious case of that is Kite Man's "Hell yeah" which at first seems to be just a knucklehead catchphrase, but after The Ballad of Kite Man, has a lot of poignancy connected to his son.

    All of King's dominoes have to come to a good point, or it'll be pretty underwhelming. I have hope that it will be great, though!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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    Here's another piece of repetition I've noticed while re-reading I Am Suicide, Rooftops, and I Am Bane: Catwoman being the piece the villain didn't plan for. A-chronologically, in Rooftops, Clock King does his grand villain speech about how he's calculated every move and Batman is finished, followed by Selina flying through the clock face and knocking him out. She is also the one that acts as the double agent in I am Suicide and then gets caught on purpose to rescue Gordon, et al. from Bane's henchmen (even in a more omniscient Bane interpretation, where maybe he calculated Selina's betrayal in Suicide and allowed that sequence of events to happen, it seems likely his kill order in I Am Bane was intended to clear the table of Catwoman, Gordon, Duke, and Bronze Tiger and not a double secret attempt to lull Bruce into a false sense of security).
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I can sort of see how Snyder writes in discrete arcs - my biggest problem is that nearly every single one of his conclusions is incredibly unsatisfying to me. I'm really hoping that King, when he hits 85 and then Bat/Cat 12, is not so.

    King uses what I've been calling "iterative storytelling" - it is, indeed, very novellistic - but it's also very typical in a lot of different storytelling media, where he uses a line or image or combination of the two over and over again, where it gains new context every time it appears. The obvious case of that is Kite Man's "Hell yeah" which at first seems to be just a knucklehead catchphrase, but after The Ballad of Kite Man, has a lot of poignancy connected to his son.

    All of King's dominoes have to come to a good point, or it'll be pretty underwhelming. I have hope that it will be great, though!
    That is probably my biggest criticism with King, is that no matter how fantastic his books are, his endings are kind of underwhelming. Like, Vision 12, Mister Miracle 12, Sheriff Of Babylon 12, etc., they aren't bad, it just doesn't really compare to everything else that happened in the stories. They're very muted finales, while the rest are fairly bombastic.

    I do think that won't be as big of a problem for Batman because of its scale, he isn't limited to having to resolve everything in just one issue, and instead has nearly 25 to build up and pay off, while also squeezing in any thematic one-shots in too.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    Here's another piece of repetition I've noticed while re-reading I Am Suicide, Rooftops, and I Am Bane: Catwoman being the piece the villain didn't plan for. A-chronologically, in Rooftops, Clock King does his grand villain speech about how he's calculated every move and Batman is finished, followed by Selina flying through the clock face and knocking him out. She is also the one that acts as the double agent in I am Suicide and then gets caught on purpose to rescue Gordon, et al. from Bane's henchmen (even in a more omniscient Bane interpretation, where maybe he calculated Selina's betrayal in Suicide and allowed that sequence of events to happen, it seems likely his kill order in I Am Bane was intended to clear the table of Catwoman, Gordon, Duke, and Bronze Tiger and not a double secret attempt to lull Bruce into a false sense of security).
    Yeah, considering Bane's reactions to Selina's betrayal in both I Am Suicide and I Am Bane, it really makes me believe that no matter what plan he had or how omniscient he is being, he didn't intend for that to go down. Especially the end of him screaming in Suicide, Batman/nobody else important is around at that point, so what else would he be reacting to?

    And jumping off what you mentioned, it does seem clear that something in the conclusion will be the result of Bruce & Selina back together being the piece he didn't plan for. Because from what we know currently, doesn't sound like Bane has even entertained the thought of them paired up again, so defying him in that way may be what helps to break him. (Also re-reading first part of City Of Bane, I'm really starting to believe that something else is going on with Bane, may not be as simple as just him taking over...)
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  15. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    Here's another piece of repetition I've noticed while re-reading I Am Suicide, Rooftops, and I Am Bane: Catwoman being the piece the villain didn't plan for. A-chronologically, in Rooftops, Clock King does his grand villain speech about how he's calculated every move and Batman is finished, followed by Selina flying through the clock face and knocking him out. She is also the one that acts as the double agent in I am Suicide and then gets caught on purpose to rescue Gordon, et al. from Bane's henchmen (even in a more omniscient Bane interpretation, where maybe he calculated Selina's betrayal in Suicide and allowed that sequence of events to happen, it seems likely his kill order in I Am Bane was intended to clear the table of Catwoman, Gordon, Duke, and Bronze Tiger and not a double secret attempt to lull Bruce into a false sense of security).
    Great point! And the fact that Batman was planning the move with Selina during "I Am Bane" makes my own prediction, that somehow Batman has a plan already in motion, all the more likely. That plus Thomas's warning to Bane that when you think you've won, you've already lost.

    As for whether Bane actually meant to kill Selina - I'm betting he assumed Batman would have some kind of plan to keep his family safe, especially after what he did to the three boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    That is probably my biggest criticism with King, is that no matter how fantastic his books are, his endings are kind of underwhelming. Like, Vision 12, Mister Miracle 12, Sheriff Of Babylon 12, etc., they aren't bad, it just doesn't really compare to everything else that happened in the stories. They're very muted finales, while the rest are fairly bombastic.

    I do think that won't be as big of a problem for Batman because of its scale, he isn't limited to having to resolve everything in just one issue, and instead has nearly 25 to build up and pay off, while also squeezing in any thematic one-shots in too.

    Yeah, considering Bane's reactions to Selina's betrayal in both I Am Suicide and I Am Bane, it really makes me believe that no matter what plan he had or how omniscient he is being, he didn't intend for that to go down. Especially the end of him screaming in Suicide, Batman/nobody else important is around at that point, so what else would he be reacting to?

    And jumping off what you mentioned, it does seem clear that something in the conclusion will be the result of Bruce & Selina back together being the piece he didn't plan for. Because from what we know currently, doesn't sound like Bane has even entertained the thought of them paired up again, so defying him in that way may be what helps to break him. (Also re-reading first part of City Of Bane, I'm really starting to believe that something else is going on with Bane, may not be as simple as just him taking over...)
    Interesting that you say that. I don't much care for Sheriff of Babylon, so I don't really have a feeling on the ending, and I actually do think that Mister Miracle 12 was really frustrating - however, Omega Men and Vision's final issues really broke my heart and blew my mind - in a good way. And that is what I'm hoping for!

    As for something else going on with Bane...we do have the acetate cover in November, with Bane being puppeted by Thomas...!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

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