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  1. #1846
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Could you elaborate a bit on how Knightfall is Born Again for Batman? I know you mentioned how it created a pattern of "break Batman down and build him back up again" - is that what you mean?
    Pretty much, yes. Every serialized protagonist falls in and out of certain cycles, but I think the influence and impact of Born Again and Knightfall is more significant than other comparable stories, in terms of how pervasive the breaking/rebirth cycle became as a result.

  2. #1847
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Pretty much, yes. Every serialized protagonist falls in and out of certain cycles, but I think the influence and impact of Born Again and Knightfall is more significant than other comparable stories, in terms of how pervasive the breaking/rebirth cycle became as a result.
    Hmm. Interesting. I'm not completely convinced that's not just a fairly common storytelling pattern for a knight or heroic figure. But these chicken or egg narrative questions are likely not completely solveable
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  3. #1848
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Ah, I mean returning the character to a popular status quo; however, I get your point Bruce was at the end of Morrison's run but even he had to return Bruce back to the popular status quo.

    King's Bruce has not shown any growth, he's always on the backfoot even though he has the qualities of Batgod Batman. Which is weird because King's Batman run is literally like night and day. Bruce is a broken hollow man, but his Batman is at his mythic height. Take for example the I am Suicide arc, Batman went through like 100 soldiers single handedly but Bruce himself is so fallible that he constantly asks Alfred for validation like in the Batman Secret Files issue: "Am I Enough?"
    I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.

  4. #1849
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.
    I suppose, but I think it could have been written in a way that isn't so jarring.

  5. #1850
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I suppose, but I think it could have been written in a way that isn't so jarring.
    It's always going to be jarring, though. And I like that contrast.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  6. #1851
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It's always going to be jarring, though. And I like that contrast.
    But destroying 100 goons and then crying about if he is enough is taking the cake, don't you think? Maybe if he failed or was bested by Kite Man (hell yeah) then I think it would read a bit better

  7. #1852

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Anyone can become more mature through passing through various life events. It should not be read as "they were immature before" just because that happens. Batman being dependent on Alfred is less mature than him not depending on Alfred.
    So you came back to my previous point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    […]
    if the Bruce Wayne of today need to become the mature man he already was during the golden, the silver and the bronze age, then I think something incredibly wrong happened with the modern Batman's writers.
    […]

    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I think that's the intention, to explore the ways in which even perceived invulnerable badasses are fragile human beings.
    It is since Knightfall they are telling this story, to me it is time to move forward and stop to emulate the work of Alan Moore and Frank Miller, because (like I said) there are better ways to acheive that purpose.
    «Let me get this straight: you kink that your client, one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands and your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck.»

    «Joker is a violent and inartistic movie, not like that masterpiece of A Clockwork Orange.» Yes, some critic of the AMPAS was able to say that.

  8. #1853
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    But destroying 100 goons and then crying about if he is enough is taking the cake, don't you think? Maybe if he failed or was bested by Kite Man (hell yeah) then I think it would read a bit better
    I think that's kind of a mis-statement of what actually happened in I Am Suicide. We read Bruce's letter over the scenes of him taking down hundreds of goons, but the letter was written months before, when he first caught Selina after she "murdered" the terrorists.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  9. #1854
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think that's kind of a mis-statement of what actually happened in I Am Suicide. We read Bruce's letter over the scenes of him taking down hundreds of goons, but the letter was written months before, when he first caught Selina after she "murdered" the terrorists.
    Sorry, I'm referring to The Batman Secret Files issue where Superman gives Bruce special Kryptonite to give him powers that last a lifetime

    It takes place right before the wedding issue (I think)

  10. #1855
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Sorry, I'm referring to The Batman Secret Files issue where Superman gives Bruce special Kryptonite to give him powers that last a lifetime

    It takes place right before the wedding issue (I think)
    I thought the platinum Kryptonite issue actually took place during the Cold Days stuff?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  11. #1856
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I thought the platinum Kryptonite issue actually took place during the Cold Days stuff?
    I'm not sure, I'm guessing based the flashback of Joker shooting the bride at the church? It's possible, but I'm not 100% sure

  12. #1857
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I'm not sure, I'm guessing based the flashback of Joker shooting the bride at the church? It's possible, but I'm not 100% sure
    I was just thinking of release date, I guess.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  13. #1858
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    It is since Knightfall they are telling this story, to me it is time to move forward and stop to emulate the work of Alan Moore and Frank Miller, because (like I said) there are better ways to acheive that purpose.
    We're completely on the same page here. Its sad what has happened to the Bat, always living in the shadow of those two stories now and forever.

    Were Miller and Moore the last two writers to actually make a significant mark on the Batman franchise? If so, then I'd be very careful what you wish for as far as King's lasting effects on the character. Would we really want to see him permanently reside on the "damaged" side of things?
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #1859

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    In my opinion Miller and Moore made a significant mark on all the comic book industry, because since Watchmen, Dark Knight Return and Daredevil Born Again, every character suffer a periodically cycle of deconstruction by almost every new writer; with the difference they aren't Alan Moore or Frank Miller, so they can't reach the same result.

    This video explain very well what I thought about "Miller and Moore mark"
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; Today at 02:58 AM.
    «Let me get this straight: you kink that your client, one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands and your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck.»

    «Joker is a violent and inartistic movie, not like that masterpiece of A Clockwork Orange.» Yes, some critic of the AMPAS was able to say that.

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