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  1. #1561
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Interesting project - did you discover any new insights about the run listing them all out like that?
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  2. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Elmer Fudd Special #1 – Pway For Me – Weeks
    – Rabbit Season – Vaughns
    #23 – The Brave And The Mold – Gerads
    #24 – Every Epilogue Is A Prelude – Finch, Mann
    #25-26, 28-29, 31-32 – The War Of Jokes And Riddles – Janin
    #27, 30 – The Ballad Of Kite Man – Mann
    #33-35 – The Rules Of Engagement – Jones
    Annual #2 – Some Of These Days – Weeks, Lark
    #36-37 – Superfriends: Superman – Mann
    This stretch is the peak of the run, for me, and probably will remain the high point when City of Bane concludes. Have moderately high hopes for the Bat/Cat book.

  3. #1563
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    This stretch is the peak of the run, for me, and probably will remain the high point when City of Bane concludes. Have moderately high hopes for the Bat/Cat book.
    Those are some really good books. For me, though, Cold Days through Knightmares are my favorites so far.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  4. #1564
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    Wild how much has changed since Rebirth #1. I wonder if Duke’s inclusion in the first arc was a Snyder mandate. Now that we’re near the end, it’s clear the groundwork TK was laying for him and Clair got changed somewhere along the way.

  5. #1565
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    Wild how much has changed since Rebirth #1. I wonder if Duke’s inclusion in the first arc was a Snyder mandate. Now that we’re near the end, it’s clear the groundwork TK was laying for him and Clair got changed somewhere along the way.
    I am really curious to see if Duke/Claire is gonna mean anything, with the "after we were married" line in Batman #5.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  6. #1566
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    Wild how much has changed since Rebirth #1. I wonder if Duke’s inclusion in the first arc was a Snyder mandate. Now that we’re near the end, it’s clear the groundwork TK was laying for him and Clair got changed somewhere along the way.
    He had talked on a podcast how his original plan had a black man (probably Duke) become Batman. But he didn't think either DC or its readers were ready for it. And I'm sure his vision shifted to focus more on Catwoman.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
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  7. #1567
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    He had talked on a podcast how his original plan had a black man (probably Duke) become Batman. But he didn't think either DC or its readers were ready for it. And I'm sure his vision shifted to focus more on Catwoman.
    I don't think that's what I remember him saying on the podcast. As for the Catwoman thing...the shape of the story doesn't seem to warp unusually when she comes in - if there was a shift, it was in #9, which is really early.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  8. #1568
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    IMO there was a pretty stark shift with issue 9. The key plots of the run start there. And Duke fades into the background. I'm not saying that King pulled a 180 on his first plans, the parts with the proposal with Catwoman I'm pretty sure was part of his original pitch, but I do think he had more for Duke in mind. Which may have been in part to stay focused on Batman. And Catwoman. But I'm largely just speculating here.
    Last edited by Pohzee; Yesterday at 09:48 PM.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #1569
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    IMO there was a pretty stark shift with issue 9. The key plots of the run start there. And Duke fades into the background. I'm not saying that King pulled a 180 on his first plans, but I do think he had more for Duke in mind.
    Duke does fade in the background. Though in his early interviews, he mentioned how Snyder has plans for Duke, and he liked the idea of Tim having a year in the cave before he's Robin, comparing Tim and Duke's training directly. So I think it's clear that Duke likely wouldn't have been a huge part of the direct action, and was mostly there to keep him at the forefront until All Star Batman showed up.

    The shift in #9, to me, is more of a shift to reveal what's going on. When I first read #1, I felt quite strongly that Batman was acting unusually fatalistically - the "good death" speech. Catwoman's appearance in prison, and then the reveal that she apparently murdered hundreds, to me, explains why he's so "off."

    I think you might well be right that there was more in King's mind for Duke...but I think he also has consistently not been a big fan of trying to pull characters from other writers to be "regulars" in his run. So once Snyder made his Metal plans for Duke clear, and then Hill got Outsiders going, he didn't want to really make Duke warp too far from what's going on there. Additionally...quite honestly, I struggle to figure out what someone could really have done with Duke in the middle of King's run. Snyder was revealing his powers extremely slowly and confusingly, he was being bounced from writer to writer (Snyder to Tynion to Patrick to Hill) with massive delays in the plans actually being revealed.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  10. #1570
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I am really curious to see if Duke/Claire is gonna mean anything, with the "after we were married" line in Batman #5.
    Doesn't seem that way, unless Bat/Cat has a really weird subplot lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    He had talked on a podcast how his original plan had a black man (probably Duke) become Batman. But he didn't think either DC or its readers were ready for it. And I'm sure his vision shifted to focus more on Catwoman.
    Are you sure? I vaguely remember him saying that, but in reference to The Gentle Man playing a bigger role.

  11. #1571
    Incredible Member Katana500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I am really curious to see if Duke/Claire is gonna mean anything, with the "after we were married" line in Batman #5.
    It might still happen in Bat/Cat although at this point any relationship between the two would probably feel a bit rushed and out of the blue.

    They might interact again in the last couple of issues. I think it's likely Bruce finds a way to save Gotham Girl at the last minute but I could see Duke maybe at her bedside since it's not looking too good for her.

    If Gotham Girl survives I could see her being permanently depowered probably.

  12. #1572
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Interesting project - did you discover any new insights about the run listing them all out like that?
    I think the most interesting thing I noticed is how much more consistent the artist and story pairings were than I initially thought. While there are still the fill-ins here and there, for the most part the artists stick to their individual storylines, which makes them feel like they can not only stand-out on their own, but also fit over a larger narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    This stretch is the peak of the run, for me, and probably will remain the high point when City of Bane concludes. Have moderately high hopes for the Bat/Cat book.
    Annual #2 and Superfriends are my two favourite stories of the run, and throwing in Elmer Fudd, Swamp Thing, and War Of Jokes And Riddles/Kite Man just elevates this stretch so much!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    Wild how much has changed since Rebirth #1. I wonder if Duke’s inclusion in the first arc was a Snyder mandate. Now that we’re near the end, it’s clear the groundwork TK was laying for him and Clair got changed somewhere along the way.
    There's been rumours that every first arc at the start of Rebirth was ghost-written by Geoff Johns (as a way to keep some consistency across the brand), so that may also have to do to why it feels so separated. King has said he believes I Am Gotham is probably the weakest of his work, due to still starting up and trying to get his barring going. Plus directly following it up with a crossover that had to be set-up too.

    I do agree that I feel like his run REALLY started in earnest with #9, since that's when Catwoman and Bane's importance come to the forefront, and King's writing style starting to take shape, with the rest being moreso like a prelude.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  13. #1573
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana500 View Post
    It might still happen in Bat/Cat although at this point any relationship between the two would probably feel a bit rushed and out of the blue.

    They might interact again in the last couple of issues. I think it's likely Bruce finds a way to save Gotham Girl at the last minute but I could see Duke maybe at her bedside since it's not looking too good for her.

    If Gotham Girl survives I could see her being permanently depowered probably.
    I think it could be cool if Bruce could save Claire, but I'm not sure if I can see how at this stage.

    Duke and Claire are both on their backs right now, one beaten by Thomas, the other by Damian's magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I think the most interesting thing I noticed is how much more consistent the artist and story pairings were than I initially thought. While there are still the fill-ins here and there, for the most part the artists stick to their individual storylines, which makes them feel like they can not only stand-out on their own, but also fit over a larger narrative.

    Annual #2 and Superfriends are my two favourite stories of the run, and throwing in Elmer Fudd, Swamp Thing, and War Of Jokes And Riddles/Kite Man just elevates this stretch so much!

    There's been rumours that every first arc at the start of Rebirth was ghost-written by Geoff Johns (as a way to keep some consistency across the brand), so that may also have to do to why it feels so separated. King has said he believes I Am Gotham is probably the weakest of his work, due to still starting up and trying to get his barring going. Plus directly following it up with a crossover that had to be set-up too.

    I do agree that I feel like his run REALLY started in earnest with #9, since that's when Catwoman and Bane's importance come to the forefront, and King's writing style starting to take shape, with the rest being moreso like a prelude.
    That is a really good insight! The nature of comic publishing sometimes magnifies the feelings of unevenness because we sit with them for two weeks or a month, and have so many issues of other comics in between.

    Those are pretty good pics! My own favorites are probably #32 and Cold Days, just in terms of impact on me.

    I Am Gotham doesn't really feel like Johns - I think it's quite likely that he ran through the story with King, but unlikely that he did any actual dialogue.

    I think if you look at I Am Gotham, you can see all the threads he's trying to setup, but #9 is the first issue that really made me situp and say, "WOW." (The rest of the arc was a bit of a letdown, but I still adore that reveal at the end. Which reminds me...I really want to try to find that issue... )
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

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