King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[charliehustle415]

because his sales were killing the title

Dude come on, a drunk monkey could write Batman and it would a top seller for months on end.

Batman and a lack of sales ain’t possible

[lilyrose]

I'd loved to have seen a couple of issues about the team of Babs, Tim, Duke, Helena, Kate and Cass infiltrating the city, that would have been awesome!


On an other note I really enjoyed today's issue! Though i feel like theirs still alot of questions to be answered and character arcs to be finished in 2 issues!

I have a feeling this is all going to end feeling very unfinished. And with Bat/Cat not coming out until March, I don't know what impact it will have. Maybe if it really did lead into that book starting in January it could have kept some momentum or at least continuation of this story, but it looks to me like the first couple months of Tynion's run is going to be boring filler issues.

[Phoenyxx1481]

I don't like that Alfred is gone, but I do like how it was handled as far as Bruce's reaction. Sometimes I feel Janin's art feels too stiff, but he nailed it beautifully. It was interesting to see just how different the two father figures in Bruce's life were. Alfred the supporting father and Thomas the controlling father. (Thomas takes controlling to a whole new level.) I look forward to the next issue to finally learn how and why Thomas is here. He is a sick person trying to get Bruce to fit the mold about how his life should be.

[gregpersons]

I see where you're going with this - if Dick hadn't been "killed" during Forever Evil, Snyder would have had his Thomas Wayne shoot Dick in the head, too (it's true that Crimemaster doesn't fit the portly part, but the rest holds).

We could make the argument that Thomas Jr. leads to Dick getting "shot" in the head in Snyder's run — when Bruce knocks Dick's tooth out with the suckerpunch at the end of Court of Owls.

It's pretty wild that the last three runs on "Batman" have all involved a play on "Thomas Wayne* is back and he's bad, baby!"

[gregpersons]

I'd loved to have seen a couple of issues about the team of Babs, Tim, Duke, Helena, Kate and Cass infiltrating the city, that would have been awesome!

On an other note I really enjoyed today's issue! Though i feel like theirs still alot of questions to be answered and character arcs to be finished in 2 issues!

The logistical questions in City Of Bane seem to be inspired by Dark Knight Rises.

"Wait, the city was locked down and any heroes are barred from entry... how in the world did they get in?" "Don't worry about it!"

[Chubistian]

Just the other day I was thinking how Morrison, Snyder and King had a family member as a main villain in the figure of Dr Hurt, Lincoln March and Thomas Wayne (Flashpoint) respectively, and now that I think about it, and if we take Dr Hurt's and March's real names, the three are named Thomas Wayne. The three writers also seem to hold a "grudge" against Alfred

I liked this issue because I think it was necessary to have some pages dedicated to acknowledge Alfred's death and to deal with it in a profound way so it doesn't feel as something out of nowhere or mere shock value. This comicbook served that purpose perfectly. Of course, 20 pages to just do that may see as an exageration in a bi-weekly schedule (and it would feel even more decompressed in a monthly basis), but in tradepaperback or by reading the whole arc once it's done, I think it will work better (as most of King's run does)

I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonment in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room

I have loved City of Bane thus far. The answers, just like in The Fall and the Fallen came in abruptly in some parts, but the good has surpassed the bad by a very fair margin

[gregpersons]

Just the other day I was thinking how Morrison, Snyder and King had a family member as a main villain in the figure of Dr Hurt, Lincoln March and Thomas Wayne (Flashpoint) respectively, and now that I think about it, and if we take Dr Hurt's and March's real names, the three are named Thomas Wayne. The three writers also seem to hold a "grudge" against Alfred

I liked this issue because I think it was necesarry to have some pages dedicated to acknowledge Alfred's death and to deal with it in a profound way so it doesn't feel as something out of nowhere or mere shock value. This comicbook served that purpose perfectly. Of course, 20 pages to just that may see as an exageration in a bi-weekly schedule (and it would feel even more decompressed in a monthly basis), but in tradepaperback or by reading the whole arc once it's done, I think it will work better (as most of King's run does)

I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonement in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room

I have loved City of Bane thus far. The answers, just like in The Fall and the Fallen came in abruptly in some parts, but the good has surpased the bad by a very fair margin

Plot twist: The Three Thomases are in fact The Three Jokers. Morrison/Snyder/King all used their Thomas figure to get Bruce to "doubt" his grasp on reality.

The parallel to the Calendar Man speech also highlighted to me how similar the overall theme of King's run is to Morrison's, and Snyder's for that matter — which is "Batman is everlasting, the fight goes on forever, what's old is new again" (and that's admittedly a common theme for more writers than just these three but I think this is due in part to the fact that each writer also began their run with a relatively clean slate of continuity and so aimed for a more ambitious and character defining message)

[Chubistian]

Plot twist: The Three Thomases are in fact The Three Jokers.

And Alfred is Dr Manhattan in disguise. Chop as many hands as you want or break his neck with all your strenght, he will always come back and he will never stop

[bob.schoonover]

So to sum up the discussion, we should assume in Tynion's run, he will introduce a Thomas Wayne (maybe this one will be from the future) who will make Bruce doubt his mission. Thomas will endanger the lives of the whole Bat-family, likely with an unattractive ally, possibly putting Dick in mortal danger, but in the end, Batman will prove himself to be everlasting and capable of overcoming the newest threat. However, there will be a point in the story when the supposed mastermind is thwarted not by Batman but by another, greater villain (Joker over Hurt, Owlman over Cluemaster, Thomas over Bane).

[Chubistian]

So to sum up the discussion, we should assume in Tynion's run, he will introduce a Thomas Wayne (maybe this one will be from the future) who will make Bruce doubt his mission. Thomas will endanger the lives of the whole Bat-family, likely with an unattractive ally, possibly putting Dick in mortal danger, but in the end, Batman will prove himself to be everlasting and capable of overcoming the newest threat. However, there will be a point in the story when the supposed mastermind is thwarted not by Batman but by another, greater villain (Joker over Hurt, Owlman over Cluemaster, Thomas over Bane).

And Alfred will be back only to be held hostage or lose a limb or (why not) both

[Hilden B. Lade]

Maybe King can resurrect Alfred in the pages of Bat/Cat as RoboButler, basically RoboCop except he's a butler instead of a cop.

[gregpersons]

So to sum up the discussion, we should assume in Tynion's run, he will introduce a Thomas Wayne (maybe this one will be from the future) who will make Bruce doubt his mission. Thomas will endanger the lives of the whole Bat-family, likely with an unattractive ally, possibly putting Dick in mortal danger, but in the end, Batman will prove himself to be everlasting and capable of overcoming the newest threat. However, there will be a point in the story when the supposed mastermind is thwarted not by Batman but by another, greater villain (Joker over Hurt, Owlman over Cluemaster, Thomas over Bane).

Hahaha yes that's clearly the course!

The Thomas Wayne resurgence is interesting. Besides these three runs, there's also the Joker movie, the Telltale games, and Batman Damned. I think this parallel thinking among the writers is reflective of the era, as our view of the 1% has darkened, there's an instinct to address Bruce's blue-blood lineage in a way that frames it as something monstrous that he must overcome.

And I think, though I have really enjoyed King's run overall with the Bat-Cat focus, I am least compelled by the Thomas storyline — although, the next issue could change that with some great reveal of his deeper motivations. I'm still in a "wait and see" with how City Of Bane concludes in the next two issues.

Here's a ranking of my favorite versions of "Thomas Wayne is bad"

1. Telltale — The simplest approach is the most effective. Bruce's actual father was a villain, part of the old Gotham mafia and directly hurt people by wrongfully diagnosing political opponents to be put in in Arkham Asylum. Bruce's war on crime matures from avenging his loss of family, to atoning for the losses his family helped to create. It adds a richer, deeper, more interesting wrinkle to everything.

2. Morrison — This gets points for being first, and for dangling the suggestion that Dr. Hurt might actually be Thomas, or might be The Devil himself impersonating Thomas, which was an exciting new type of threat at the time. In the end, the ultimate reveal that Dr. Hurt was Bruce's indirect ancestor from the 1800s who also happened to be named Thomas Wayne who was kept alive by demonic rituals and Darkseid's Hyper-Adapter was kind of convoluted and ridiculous, but the idea of "an enemy who knows you better than you know yourself, lurking in the shadows from the beginning" was most exciting to me the first time.

3. Joker film — Thomas is a rich ******* running for mayor is good. Tying him to the Joker's origin and vice-versa is unnecessary and annoying.

4. Snyder — It's hard for me to see The Court of Owls and Lincoln March as anything more than second-draft rewrites of Black Glove and Dr. Hurt... the concept is improved and somewhat streamlined, but hurt contextually by coming right after we just did this storyline!

5. King — I think the incorporation of Flashpoint Batman and then making him integral to the larger run is an example of the writer's reach exceeding their grasp. It still seems, 25+ issues later, like the overall run would've been better had Thomas's plot points been just given to Bane instead.

[TheJudge95]

I liked the paralels to Calendar's man speech in the ending of this issue and the callback to Bruce's imprisonment in I Am Suicide when he tried to escape the room

Nice catch for the Calendar Man callback

I didn't hate this issue by any means, but it's definitely, for me, the issue which most exemplifies the seams in whatever the heck happened to King's run (moving to Bat/Cat, Tony Daniels needing lead time to draw . . . parts of three issues). Bruce said he sent Damian in because Alfred wasn't there to be a hostage, then Alfred stayed to be the hostage, too? Bruce and Thomas have recovered from the beatings in issue 81 and 82 already. Gotham Girl has been neutralized, but the JLA doesn't know?

I agree with what you're saying and a lot of the plot feels like whiplash, on top of Bane's and Batman's convoluted plans and the Bane fake-out. But I think Alfred was supposed to escape (with Clayface or Ventriloquist) but for some reason was unable to, and sent the signal anyway for Damian to move in and sacrificed himself so that the plan could work.

[BatmanJones]

Although I love this Batman run more than any before it and although I've absolutely loved most everything that's happened since the wedding issue, I have to admit to a small sense of disappointment as we near the end.

When I saw the final panel of #50, it blew my freaking mind. As others complained about the decompressed nature of the subsequent issues, I always said I felt King was playing a long game and that when all was said and done I felt sure the resolution of this long run would be entirely satisfying.

I have to admit that with only 2 issues left, I fear that the promise of that last panel of #50 won't be fulfilled in the end.

Those characters we learned were working with Bane were so surprising I felt sure that somewhere in the next 50 issues (now 35) we'd get to see what led to all of those characters working with Bane. I understand now that the issue in which Thomas Wayne told Bane what his plan had been and asked how he could help (essentially a recap of the story to that point) is pretty much all we're going to get with regard to Bane somehow convincing Joker, Riddler, Holly Robinson, Thomas Wayne, Ventriloquist, Skeets(!), and others joining his cause. And I have to say that's a major bummer to me.

This is not at all to say I haven't enjoyed what we have gotten because I have. Still, it seems King is a lot better at writing cliffhangers (Bane breaks Batman's back, Tim gets impaled, Batman gets shot twice in the gut, and most especially that last panel of the wedding issue) than resolving them. Instead, even to an absolute lover of this run, it's clear now that the cliffhangers that have been so shocking are never going to be resolved. Before Knightmares we got one of the most thrilling cliffhangers in the entire run with Thomas Wayne invading the Batcave to attack Alfred and Bruce. To wait through so many dream sequences (all wonderful by the way), waiting for the story to pick back up where it left off, what felt like one of the most exciting scenes just never happened. Why so many cliffhangers with so few resolutions?

I hate to post this on the day that such an emotionally rewarding issue came out but, being we're finally on the verge of the end, I've finally given up on the final 35 issues providing a satisfying solution to the many cliffhangers, some of which the story just sort of ignores ever having happened.

Every week when I pick up my new comics I talk with a LCS worker that's frustrated by the run. Every week since not too long after #50 he's exasperatedly said, "still no explanations." And every week I've said, "King's playing a long game. Just wait. All will be explained and it's gonna be great." It's a jovial exchange every week but after Dec. 18 I'm going to have to admit to him that I'd been wrong. I don't mind being wrong but I do mind being disappointed.

King had so many issues to give us satisfying explanations but in City of Bane he's using about 9 issues to give us about 3 issues worth of story. And the ultimate arc of the run, misleadingly titled "City of Bane" featured Bane only in small cameos. This feels like an awfully bad time to indulge in ultimate decompression. I don't typically mind decompression at all as long as the story is satisfying in the end. But, as with Heroes in Crisis (one of the poorer attempts to stick the landing in memory), I don't think there's any way the last two issues will allow a reader to cash the check King wrote back at the end of #50.

Nothing is going to stop this run from having been my favorite run on my lifelong favorite title, but I'm already a little disappointed in a failure to provide a satisfying resolution to so many long-held questions. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I wonder though if other lovers of this run harbor similar concerns or disappointments.

[BatmanJones]

None of the above is to say I didn't enjoy Batman #83. I think it's one of the best issues of Batman of all time.