King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[millernumber1]

While I'm generally against killing villains, Thomas is spent as a villain (much like the previous two Thomas Waynes, they've done their arc, put Bruce through his paces, and he prevailed definitively), and any redemption would make him wildly duplicative with the rest of the Bat-family. Sure, someone might find a good role for him someday, but I'm not really convinced he adds something new to the canvas anymore. Bruce beat him physically and morally.

That's an epic arc title! I laughed way too hard. It's pretty funny with the JL-arcs being so depressing and downward looking how hopeful and uplifting #85 was. It stands in sharp contrast to the end of Morrison's run where he looked at the arc of where Batman was going and appeared to go in a bit of a nihilistic direction*.

*Really, the two runs are almost completely opposite. King starts with Batman down, contemplating death and having the rug pulled out from under him where Morrison starts with Bruce supercharged and happy (ish). Thomas Wayne appears in King's run originally as a helpful person who Bruce wants to save and then becomes the true villain, whereas Thomas is evil from the start in Morrison's but is fundamentally a joke by the time Joker took care of him. Both runs end with a death (Damian' and Alfred's) and Bruce reacting incredibly different in each. You could even make an attempt at relating Kathy Kane's role in Inc to Catwoman in City of Bane, but that might be trying way too hard. Maybe. I'll think about it for when we do the re-read.

I personally agree that Thomas is probably better dead or destroyed. But I think it'll be a long time before someone uses him again - I mean, it was about 6 years between Flashpoint and this arc, so I'd expect another gap of that, by which time people will hopefully remember King Bats with less vitriol than they do now. Hopefully I'm right about this, and we don't have another Lincoln March situation, where they just kept using him, despite the fact that every arc he was in seemed to end with him dead.

I was feeling a bit salty with that arc title. I'm a bit late with my essay comparing Morrison, Snyder, and King's final issues, but a BIG element I'm going to be pulling out is that Morrison, for whatever reason, was pulling from very dark places for his final arc of Batman - his childhood experience of his parents' divorce, the changes DC was making to the universe with the n52 - and that really showed through in the work, to its detriment, I think. King, interestingly, is pulling from some of the same experiences - his father leaving his family particularly - but decides that the best thing to do is to hold his loved ones closer, stick to his vows, and find joy in that, rather than find "a hole in the world."

I think your point about Kathy and Selina in the two runs is actually REALLY key. Because for Morrison (and Snyder, importantly), Kathy, Talia, and Julia represent something Bruce can't have - and I think they argue that it's because Bruce is a child, lost in the hole, trapped by his vow. King, on the other hand, sees Selina as something that Bruce MUST grow up and seek. These romantic relationships are all revolving around the idea of maturity - as David Mazzucchelli said in the afterword to Batman Year One, Catwoman represents a maturity that the boys aren't ready for yet - but King is making the case that after 80 years, Bruce, and we as the fans, ARE ready.

And by God, I hope we are.

King has introduced changes already. Killing Alfred, making Thomas so cruel to his son and Thomas Wayne sticking around on this world [his world was blown up] Those seem like big changes to the Batman Status Quo

I really don't think the Thomas stuff is that big of a change going forward. Thomas's letter didn't make that big of a change after Flashpoint up until The Button, so I don't see how his character evolution/change will make that much of a difference going forward.

The more I've become accustomed to King's particular pacing and phrasing, it is now pretty easy to spot who wrote which pages in Rebirth #1, IMO.

Considering how much of 85 was focused on the theme of "nothing changes. does it?" it's nice to see that was there in the beginning with the Calendar Man stuff in Rebirth #1.

But yeah I didn't expect to find new meaning in Lucius's story to Bruce about legacy and madness, but it resonates more now that everything is laid out.

Oooh, if you could share which pages you think are King vs. Snyder in the Rebirth, I'd be very grateful! Another friend just sent me the page where Lucius is talking about Thomas, and that's SO interesting. King has said that he didn't plan to use Flashpoint Batman so much until after #50...but maybe he unconsciously had an idea even that early!

Sometimes dessert is so good, you completely forget you were going to have dinner first.

What was everyone's favorite part of the issue? I loved when Bruce told Thomas, "You're not my father."

Great question!

For me, I think my favorite parts are Bruce, Chuck, and finally Selina in Porky's bar. Selina winking and then sitting down as the comic fades to black on whether or not Campbell can kick the football is so good. Because I believe he did. And Bruce and Selina will get back up again, forever. And even if they don't - this arc will be here for me, in my heart, just as #32 will be - "Bruce, say it again. But this time, poor boy, don't demand. Please. Just ask me."

I loved the whole scene where Thomas is remembering his past with Martha and then Bane enters the room and breaks him

My favorite quotes were "There are No good deaths. But there are good lives. Let's try to live one of those" and the entire page that ends with Bruce stating "and I choose Batman"

Awesome picks!

[bob.schoonover]

As a quick and dirty rubric, I think the Calendar Man stuff is King, Duke's new costume is Snyder, and the stuff with Fox is probably King but could also be Snyder or Johns' (supposedly a ghost writer on all the Rebirth issues).

[bob.schoonover]

I was feeling a bit salty with that arc title. I'm a bit late with my essay comparing Morrison, Snyder, and King's final issues, but a BIG element I'm going to be pulling out is that Morrison, for whatever reason, was pulling from very dark places for his final arc of Batman - his childhood experience of his parents' divorce, the changes DC was making to the universe with the n52 - and that really showed through in the work, to its detriment, I think. King, interestingly, is pulling from some of the same experiences - his father leaving his family particularly - but decides that the best thing to do is to hold his loved ones closer, stick to his vows, and find joy in that, rather than find "a hole in the world."

I think your point about Kathy and Selina in the two runs is actually REALLY key. Because for Morrison (and Snyder, importantly), Kathy, Talia, and Julia represent something Bruce can't have - and I think they argue that it's because Bruce is a child, lost in the hole, trapped by his vow. King, on the other hand, sees Selina as something that Bruce MUST grow up and seek. These romantic relationships are all revolving around the idea of maturity - as David Mazzucchelli said in the afterword to Batman Year One, Catwoman represents a maturity that the boys aren't ready for yet - but King is making the case that after 80 years, Bruce, and we as the fans, ARE ready.

And by God, I hope we are.
!

In some ways, Snyder and Morrison made it easier for King to make the argument for Selina as a true love. One can like or dislike the pairing, but it's very hard to use a modern comic to make an argument for a different love interest*. As you say, Julie, Kathy and Talia were somewhat negated by the previous two runs. While I liked Sasha Bordeaux, I think Rucka effectively took her off the table as a love interest, too, when she joined Checkmate. Who's left?

Unless he says differently, I'll always assume the end of Batman, Inc took a downward turn tonally because of what Snyder had planned for Death of the Family and editorial's interest in that type of story. The whole post-52 intent of Morrison's run (as mentioned a couple times in the original 52 TPB notes) was to lighten Bruce up and improve his relationship with his family. The last couple issues of Inc always read to me as "this isn't what I want, but it's the nature of commercial art that it has to be this way"

*Consider the backlash to the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing, or most of the non-MJ girlfriends of Peter Parker - the argument usually boils down to "She's not Lois/MJ."

[millernumber1]

In some ways, Snyder and Morrison made it easier for King to make the argument for Selina as a true love. One can like or dislike the pairing, but it's very hard to use a modern comic to make an argument for a different love interest*. As you say, Julie, Kathy and Talia were somewhat negated by the previous two runs. While I liked Sasha Bordeaux, I think Rucka effectively took her off the table as a love interest, too, when she joined Checkmate. Who's left?

Unless he says differently, I'll always assume the end of Batman, Inc took a downward turn tonally because of what Snyder had planned for Death of the Family and editorial's interest in that type of story. The whole post-52 intent of Morrison's run (as mentioned a couple times in the original 52 TPB notes) was to lighten Bruce up and improve his relationship with his family. The last couple issues of Inc always read to me as "this isn't what I want, but it's the nature of commercial art that it has to be this way"

*Consider the backlash to the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing, or most of the non-MJ girlfriends of Peter Parker - the argument usually boils down to "She's not Lois/MJ."

I love Sasha, but her romance with Bruce was incredibly unhealthy. I much prefer her relationship with Mr. Terrific.

Silver St. Cloud is the one people always bring up. And King brought her up in the Elmer Fudd issue. There's also, of course, Andrea Beaumont.

I think it's almost certain the Morrison always planned to kill of Damian - but it's possible that he didn't originally intend to use him as heavily as he did in Batman and Robin. The really frustrating stuff, for me (since I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who was out of DC from 2012 to 2014, so Damian was already on his way back and no one was seriously worried he'd be gone for any length of time at that point) was the dissolution of Batman Inc - the most exciting idea I've ever heard of for Batman in my entire life. Even more frustratingly, it was pointless to dissolve it, since Batman Eternal and several other series continued using assets and characters from the series for years afterwards.

[Scott Taylor]

"And I choose Batman"

Kind of like - "It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me." - a brilliant line from Batman Begins.

Brilliant. This issue took a couple of readings for me to really appreciate, but I think it had the right emotional notes to wrap things up nicely. Going to miss King and what he brought to the Bat Diner.

[Chubistian]

I love Sasha, but her romance with Bruce was incredibly unhealthy. I much prefer her relationship with Mr. Terrific.

Silver St. Cloud is the one people always bring up. And King brought her up in the Elmer Fudd issue. There's also, of course, Andrea Beaumont.

I think it's almost certain the Morrison always planned to kill of Damian - but it's possible that he didn't originally intend to use him as heavily as he did in Batman and Robin. The really frustrating stuff, for me (since I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who was out of DC from 2012 to 2014, so Damian was already on his way back and no one was seriously worried he'd be gone for any length of time at that point) was the dissolution of Batman Inc - the most exciting idea I've ever heard of for Batman in my entire life. Even more frustratingly, it was pointless to dissolve it, since Batman Eternal and several other series continued using assets and characters from the series for years afterwards.

I had problems with the Batman Inc concept once the N52 happened. I think it didn't mix well with the rejuvenated Bruce Wayne the reboot was supposed to bring on, but that's not Morrison's fault at all. With the Rebirth continuity, I think Batman Inc works much better. Personally, at the time I would have liked for Inc to end in the old continuity, even if the reboot was already done, so Morrison could do his own thing without worrying to make it fit into the N52 canon. Now that we have a canon that allows itself to play with a larger group of previous stories and that the frame the superheroes have been working has been extended, and with a Bruce Wayne that seems more in his 30 something almost 40s, at least in King's version, it would be great to have Batman Inc still working

[millernumber1]

I had problems with the Batman Inc concept once the N52 happened. I think it didn't mix well with the rejuvenated Bruce Wayne the reboot was supposed to bring on, but that's not Morrison's fault at all. With the Rebirth continuity, I think Batman Inc works much better. Personally, at the time I would have liked for Inc to end in the old continuity, even if the reboot was already done, so Morrison could do his own thing without worrying to make it fit into the N52 canon. Now that we have a canon that allows itself to play with a larger group of previous stories and that the frame the superheroes have been working has been extended, and with a Bruce Wayne that seems more in his 30 something almost 40s, at least in King's version, it would be great to have Batman Inc still working

You are absolutely right that the n52 does not work well with Inc - but the n52 writers, especially Tynion and Higgins - loved Inc (because it was an AWESOME idea) too much to let it go. And it wouldn't be truly fair to Morrison to make him finish his arc all by himself in his own pocket continuity.

I do wish we would have Batman Inc again. Are there any major connective threads from the last few years to Inc? I know that Spyral is sort of connected, but the status of Spyral is pretty up in the air at the moment, given Leviathan.

[millernumber1]

Well, this is interesting: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...67246682148864

A reader asks King about Gotham Girl's narration where she says she killed Bruce...and King says "Forthcoming."

Wow. I thought we'd already done the death of Batman.

[lilyrose]

If King said in his EW interview that the Bat/Cat conversation at the end would have happened in #100 originally, then what was the whole thing about changing Batman for a generation supposed to be? He'd said before it's still happening in Bat/Cat, but is that still true?

If they were never going to be able to marry, then the only thing it could be is a baby, right? But would that really be allowed to happen in a side book?

[millernumber1]

There's an interesting discussion about Bat/Cat (and how it's something of an expansion of Annual #2, which I'm thrilled about!), as well as insight into whether they are really married, and Thomas's motivation, in this podcast!

https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...s-and-riddles/

[Restingvoice]

Well, this is interesting: https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...67246682148864

A reader asks King about Gotham Girl's narration where she says she killed Bruce...and King says "Forthcoming."

Wow. I thought we'd already done the death of Batman.

Does that mean he'll be back for 5G... or maybe that death will be the back story for 5G...

[millernumber1]

Does that mean he'll be back for 5G... or maybe that death will be the back story for 5G...

That is the question, isn't it!

[lilyrose]

There's an interesting discussion about Bat/Cat (and how it's something of an expansion of Annual #2, which I'm thrilled about!), as well as insight into whether they are really married, and Thomas's motivation, in this podcast!

https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...s-and-riddles/

Listening to this makes me even more excited for Bat/Cat. It almost sounds like he's going to jump around their whole lives together- maybe that's how Helena Wayne gets in there. So he wouldn't have to say exactly when she's born.

I also like how he asks them if they think that Bruce and Selina are married now- like leaving it to the audience's interpretation of what to make of that last scene of them. To Batman, vowing to love her forever is the same as his vow to fight criminals- he'll never break it. That I believe, and it's not like nowadays people don't accept choosing to be partners forever and marriage is just a technicality...it's just that that technicality really leaves it open for other writers to flat out ignore it if they want to. And that I don't like. I want for everyone else to have to accept it too.

[DragonPiece]

If the gotham girl story is still coming, I wonder if that means she will still marry Duke in the future?

If King said in his EW interview that the Bat/Cat conversation at the end would have happened in #100 originally, then what was the whole thing about changing Batman for a generation supposed to be? He'd said before it's still happening in Bat/Cat, but is that still true?

If they were never going to be able to marry, then the only thing it could be is a baby, right? But would that really be allowed to happen in a side book?

It's either about helena wayne coming, alfred's death or selina and bruce being "married." Pick any three and I'd consider them big chanes to the status quo.

[Katana500]

If the gotham girl story is still coming, I wonder if that means she will still marry Duke in the future?

Maybe she will be married to him after a 5g timeskip? Marrying Duke probably is not that big a deal since he doesnt really have any shippers pairing him with anyone who would get annoyed.