King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[scary harpy]

Me and my friends did, but we were kids at the time. I'll also argue that many casual friends thought he would as well as the media. I clearly recall people buying up his death issue because "it will be a collector's item".

I love Sups too and I'm also glad he come back. But acting as is everyone knew Superman would return at the time of the events is b.s. The difference here is the beans were spilled via the media before the trick could even be pulled. There are going to be bad consequences for DC I predict.

Just for the sake of clarity: How old were you and your friends?

[Celgress]

Just for the sake of clarity: How old were you and your friends?

In elementary school, so rather young.

[scary harpy]

In elementary school, so rather young.

oh.

okay. my bad.

I can see how some did not know Superman was returning.

[Pohzee]

Interesting! Do you have speculations on what's going on, or just have faith?

No speculation, just faith. I’ve enjoyed the run so far for its exploration of the character, not for my expectation of the Wedding. If all is going as intended, which I assume it is, then I’m on board. I enjoy comics because I care about the characters, but I don’t have set expectations for what happens to them. What happens happens and I just hope it’s a good story. So far it has been. Also, having not read the detailed spoilers (just yes/no) I think that this might be a bit more relatable

—————————————

Alright, so I just reread the parts of King’s run that I had read yesterday and caught up on what I haven’t in order to prepare for issue #50. I really enjoyed it, but I definitely found some things that were not perfect.

The first large quibble that I had was the beginning of I Am Suicide. The story opens up with a lot of infodumping of status quo changes that makes you wonder, when did that happen? When did Catwoman “murder” 237 people? When did Bronze Tiger get addicted to Venom? What happened to Punch and Julee that landed punch in Santa Prisca? And the answer is of course that it wasn’t based on previous comics, it was just a status quo King set for the story arc to work. Obviously the smaller changes don’t really matter. And obviously the big one, Catwoman’s situation, is explained. But even that still leaves the question of when exactly this happened. Was it before I Am Gotham? Why didn’t we see this weighing upon Batman at all or even slightly suggested during that story then?

I mourn The War or Jokes and Riddles. I was extremely excited when I first heard King talking about it on podcasts. It really would have had the potential to be King’s stand-alone, perennial selling Batman story like Snyder’s Court of Owls. But that was if editorial has let it be the 12 issue miniseries that King had intended. Wrangling it into the main Batman book completely neutered it for two reasons. Firstly, the compression of the story from 12 issues to 8 issues really hindered the story. Short for pages, King tells too much of the story through representative splash pages and narration. Secondly, making it beholden to the ongoings of the Batman series makes this story completely irrelevant. It doesn’t work on its own because it is beholden to the engagement, but it is also just padding between Bruce popping the question and Selina saying yes. It’s an fantastic story concept with nice relationship beats at the end, but in the end it’s just unnecessary. I might just skip it in future rereads.

I don’t have much good to say about Everybody Loves Ivy or The Gift either. Both were clearly filler to get the wedding to be #50 and a plug for the upcoming Heroes in Crisis. ELI seemed like a strong overcorrection in response to a vocal minority of fans who took issue with King’s Ivy in TWoJaR. The Gift ended in a way so hilariously gruesome that it seemed like King parodying The Gun Goes Off and his violent storytelling in general.

BUT beyond all that, I really did enjoy it. Sadly, it’s a lot easier to criticize than to praise works of art. It’s difficult for me to elaborate more than “I like it” or “that’s nice.” But I enjoy the way that King writes Bruce. I find his voice for the character to be on point. I prefer this quieter, punctual Batman. Comparing The Best Man and TWoJaR to Snyder’s Endgame, there is a noticeable difference in Batman’s speech. Snyder’s Batman scolds and talks down to the criminals he is defeating. He makes it well known that he hates the Joker from his speech. But with King’s Batman, you can feel Batman’s hate for the Joker radiating from him. He doesn’t taunt him or lash out at him verbally. He speaks the bare minimum to get what he needs and says no more. In TWoJaR he speaks only to try to end the conflict. In all of The Best Man, Batman only says one word. He doesn’t spend the issue verbally assaulting the Joker for the murders he’s committed or calling him a lowly criminal like Snyder’s would. Instead, he is silent, seething. And that’s something that I prefer.

People complain about King’s Batman always being beaten up, ineffectual. But that’s not the case. One doesn’t necessitate the other. Batman is beaten many times in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. He’s killed in Everyone Loves Ivy. But in those instances it is not because he has been outmatched but because it is part of his plan. In the I Am Trilogy, he allows himself to take physical punishment to serve as a distraction to carry out a plan that goes successfully. In Everybody Loves Ivy he successfully baits Ivy into giving him head trauma to find Harley Quinn. And some people would say that that’s stupid. Batman should have a better plan than getting beat up. But it makes sense with King’s take on the character. Throwing himself recklessly into harm’s way is a masochistic symptom of his “suicide” as Batman. Being Batman to Bruce means suffering for the help of others and acting recklessly, and putting himself in a position where he will be punished is emblematic of that.

I don’t have much more to add because most of the run to this point has been buildup to the wedding and reactions to that. They were all on point and enjoyable enough. I’m certainly not put off of this run and will continue to read it eagerly.

[DarthNeo]

I have enjoyed King WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more than Snyder. The one story that I really did not agree with was, "I am Suicide." IMO, even young Bruce Wayne would have NEVER contemplated that act...

[millernumber1]

No speculation, just faith. I’ve enjoyed the run so far for its exploration of the character, not for my expectation of the Wedding. If all is going as intended, which I assume it is, then I’m on board. I enjoy comics because I care about the characters, but I don’t have set expectations for what happens to them. What happens happens and I just hope it’s a good story. So far it has been. Also, having not read the detailed spoilers (just yes/no) I think that this might be a bit more relatable

—————————————

Alright, so I just reread the parts of King’s run that I had read yesterday and caught up on what I haven’t in order to prepare for issue #50. I really enjoyed it, but I definitely found some things that were not perfect.

The first large quibble that I had was the beginning of I Am Suicide. The story opens up with a lot of infodumping of status quo changes that makes you wonder, when did that happen? When did Catwoman “murder” 237 people? When did Bronze Tiger get addicted to Venom? What happened to Punch and Julee that landed punch in Santa Prisca? And the answer is of course that it wasn’t based on previous comics, it was just a status quo King set for the story arc to work. Obviously the smaller changes don’t really matter. And obviously the big one, Catwoman’s situation, is explained. But even that still leaves the question of when exactly this happened. Was it before I Am Gotham? Why didn’t we see this weighing upon Batman at all or even slightly suggested during that story then?

I mourn The War or Jokes and Riddles. I was extremely excited when I first heard King talking about it on podcasts. It really would have had the potential to be King’s stand-alone, perennial selling Batman story like Snyder’s Court of Owls. But that was if editorial has let it be the 12 issue miniseries that King had intended. Wrangling it into the main Batman book completely neutered it for two reasons. Firstly, the compression of the story from 12 issues to 8 issues really hindered the story. Short for pages, King tells too much of the story through representative splash pages and narration. Secondly, making it beholden to the ongoings of the Batman series makes this story completely irrelevant. It doesn’t work on its own because it is beholden to the engagement, but it is also just padding between Bruce popping the question and Selina saying yes. It’s an fantastic story concept with nice relationship beats at the end, but in the end it’s just unnecessary. I might just skip it in future rereads.

I don’t have much good to say about Everybody Loves Ivy or The Gift either. Both were clearly filler to get the wedding to be #50 and a plug for the upcoming Heroes in Crisis. ELI seemed like a strong overcorrection in response to a vocal minority of fans who took issue with King’s Ivy in TWoJaR. The Gift ended in a way so hilariously gruesome that it seemed like King parodying The Gun Goes Off and his violent storytelling in general.

BUT beyond all that, I really did enjoy it. Sadly, it’s a lot easier to criticize than to praise works of art. It’s difficult for me to elaborate more than “I like it” or “that’s nice.” But I enjoy the way that King writes Bruce. I find his voice for the character to be on point. I prefer this quieter, punctual Batman. Comparing The Best Man and TWoJaR to Snyder’s Endgame, there is a noticeable difference in Batman’s speech. Snyder’s Batman scolds and talks down to the criminals he is defeating. He makes it well known that he hates the Joker from his speech. But with King’s Batman, you can feel Batman’s hate for the Joker radiating from him. He doesn’t taunt him or lash out at him verbally. He speaks the bare minimum to get what he needs and says no more. In TWoJaR he speaks only to try to end the conflict. In all of The Best Man, Batman only says one word. He doesn’t spend the issue verbally assaulting the Joker for the murders he’s committed or calling him a lowly criminal like Snyder’s would. Instead, he is silent, seething. And that’s something that I prefer.

People complain about King’s Batman always being beaten up, ineffectual. But that’s not the case. One doesn’t necessitate the other. Batman is beaten many times in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. He’s killed in Everyone Loves Ivy. But in those instances it is not because he has been outmatched but because it is part of his plan. In the I Am Trilogy, he allows himself to take physical punishment to serve as a distraction to carry out a plan that goes successfully. In Everybody Loves Ivy he successfully baits Ivy into giving him head trauma to find Harley Quinn. And some people would say that that’s stupid. Batman should have a better plan than getting beat up. But it makes sense with King’s take on the character. Throwing himself recklessly into harm’s way is a masochistic symptom of his “suicide” as Batman. Being Batman to Bruce means suffering for the help of others and acting recklessly, and putting himself in a position where he will be punished is emblematic of that.

I don’t have much more to add because most of the run to this point has been buildup to the wedding and reactions to that. They were all on point and enjoyable enough. I’m certainly not put off of this run and will continue to read it eagerly.

Wow, really nice analysis! I think there's a good chance that we do see the Catwoman situation weighing on Batman in I Am Gotham - the fact that he's so resigned to death, already looking for a replacement, is a pretty different state of mind for Batman, in my reading. Catwoman's situation would help to explain why his emotional state seems so "off". Pretty much agree about War of Jokes and Riddles - there are some really good things, but too much is squished in the loss of four issues.

In terms of Everyone Loves Ivy and The Gift - I think The Gift especially may play into the Wedding arc more than we know, but I just didn't enjoy it. Good point about The Gun Goes Off (Grayson #3) - an issue I also hated, though later issues somewhat helped with it. I think they're not precisely filler so much as setting up for Heroes in Crisis - and I'm really curious to see if Heroes in Crisis feeds back into Batman. Otherwise, it feels a bit like cannibalizing the sales of Batman to backdoor pilot another series. (And the retcon of Ivy does feel really odd, since she didn't get enough focus to justify this kind of delayed reaction five or more years later from War of Jokes and Riddles.)

I do appreciate the way King is economical with his dialogue for Batman, though every now and then, I think he goes too far (like at the end of The Gift, where Bruce and Selina say nothing). Much preferred to the boastful, almost shrill (and often contradictory) Bruce of Snyder's Joker stories. And your idea that he's trying to take the suffering of others as Batman really fits into my somewhat spiritual reading of Batman - I really like that.

[The Dying Detective]

No speculation, just faith. I’ve enjoyed the run so far for its exploration of the character, not for my expectation of the Wedding. If all is going as intended, which I assume it is, then I’m on board. I enjoy comics because I care about the characters, but I don’t have set expectations for what happens to them. What happens happens and I just hope it’s a good story. So far it has been. Also, having not read the detailed spoilers (just yes/no) I think that this might be a bit more relatable

—————————————

Alright, so I just reread the parts of King’s run that I had read yesterday and caught up on what I haven’t in order to prepare for issue #50. I really enjoyed it, but I definitely found some things that were not perfect.

The first large quibble that I had was the beginning of I Am Suicide. The story opens up with a lot of infodumping of status quo changes that makes you wonder, when did that happen? When did Catwoman “murder” 237 people? When did Bronze Tiger get addicted to Venom? What happened to Punch and Julee that landed punch in Santa Prisca? And the answer is of course that it wasn’t based on previous comics, it was just a status quo King set for the story arc to work. Obviously the smaller changes don’t really matter. And obviously the big one, Catwoman’s situation, is explained. But even that still leaves the question of when exactly this happened. Was it before I Am Gotham? Why didn’t we see this weighing upon Batman at all or even slightly suggested during that story then?

I mourn The War or Jokes and Riddles. I was extremely excited when I first heard King talking about it on podcasts. It really would have had the potential to be King’s stand-alone, perennial selling Batman story like Snyder’s Court of Owls. But that was if editorial has let it be the 12 issue miniseries that King had intended. Wrangling it into the main Batman book completely neutered it for two reasons. Firstly, the compression of the story from 12 issues to 8 issues really hindered the story. Short for pages, King tells too much of the story through representative splash pages and narration. Secondly, making it beholden to the ongoings of the Batman series makes this story completely irrelevant. It doesn’t work on its own because it is beholden to the engagement, but it is also just padding between Bruce popping the question and Selina saying yes. It’s an fantastic story concept with nice relationship beats at the end, but in the end it’s just unnecessary. I might just skip it in future rereads.

I don’t have much good to say about Everybody Loves Ivy or The Gift either. Both were clearly filler to get the wedding to be #50 and a plug for the upcoming Heroes in Crisis. ELI seemed like a strong overcorrection in response to a vocal minority of fans who took issue with King’s Ivy in TWoJaR. The Gift ended in a way so hilariously gruesome that it seemed like King parodying The Gun Goes Off and his violent storytelling in general.

BUT beyond all that, I really did enjoy it. Sadly, it’s a lot easier to criticize than to praise works of art. It’s difficult for me to elaborate more than “I like it” or “that’s nice.” But I enjoy the way that King writes Bruce. I find his voice for the character to be on point. I prefer this quieter, punctual Batman. Comparing The Best Man and TWoJaR to Snyder’s Endgame, there is a noticeable difference in Batman’s speech. Snyder’s Batman scolds and talks down to the criminals he is defeating. He makes it well known that he hates the Joker from his speech. But with King’s Batman, you can feel Batman’s hate for the Joker radiating from him. He doesn’t taunt him or lash out at him verbally. He speaks the bare minimum to get what he needs and says no more. In TWoJaR he speaks only to try to end the conflict. In all of The Best Man, Batman only says one word. He doesn’t spend the issue verbally assaulting the Joker for the murders he’s committed or calling him a lowly criminal like Snyder’s would. Instead, he is silent, seething. And that’s something that I prefer.

People complain about King’s Batman always being beaten up, ineffectual. But that’s not the case. One doesn’t necessitate the other. Batman is beaten many times in I Am Suicide and I Am Bane. He’s killed in Everyone Loves Ivy. But in those instances it is not because he has been outmatched but because it is part of his plan. In the I Am Trilogy, he allows himself to take physical punishment to serve as a distraction to carry out a plan that goes successfully. In Everybody Loves Ivy he successfully baits Ivy into giving him head trauma to find Harley Quinn. And some people would say that that’s stupid. Batman should have a better plan than getting beat up. But it makes sense with King’s take on the character. Throwing himself recklessly into harm’s way is a masochistic symptom of his “suicide” as Batman. Being Batman to Bruce means suffering for the help of others and acting recklessly, and putting himself in a position where he will be punished is emblematic of that.

I don’t have much more to add because most of the run to this point has been buildup to the wedding and reactions to that. They were all on point and enjoyable enough. I’m certainly not put off of this run and will continue to read it eagerly.

This sums up how I really feel about the War of Jokes and Riddles it was an epic idea that fell apart because it didn't have the space to tell the story properly it would have been worth it to see Deadshot and Deathstroke fight each other. But DC for some reason wanted to cheapen it that's bad.

[millernumber1]

This sums up how I really feel about the War of Jokes and Riddles it was an epic idea that fell apart because it didn't have the space to tell the story properly it would have been worth it to see Deadshot and Deathstroke fight each other. But DC for some reason wanted to cheapen it that's bad.

I think "cheapen" isn't quite what DC wanted. I think they did make a mistake, especially since they didn't ask King if he wanted to do it, they just told him. They were trying to maximize the story that King was telling, get the biggest audience available, and his 12-issue miniseries, though popular, didn't necessarily sell super well all the way through.

[The Dying Detective]

I think "cheapen" isn't quite what DC wanted. I think they did make a mistake, especially since they didn't ask King if he wanted to do it, they just told him. They were trying to maximize the story that King was telling, get the biggest audience available, and his 12-issue miniseries, though popular, didn't necessarily sell super well all the way through.

So DC told King that his story would not have sold well if it was a 12 issue mini-series? Because if it did it probably would have been a whole lot more interesting. it was also that story where King managed to sell me on a humourless Joker even though I was not into the idea.

[millernumber1]

So DC told King that his story would not have sold well if it was a 12 issue mini-series? Because if it did it probably would have been a whole lot more interesting. it was also that story where King managed to sell me on a humourless Joker even though I was not into the idea.

From what I can tell from the podcast at WordBalloon, King submitted his request to do a 12-issue miniseries, and they sat on it for a while, then came back and said, "We've approved this - AS THE MAIN SERIES." They didn't tell him way, from what he said.

[The Dying Detective]

From what I can tell from the podcast at WordBalloon, King submitted his request to do a 12-issue miniseries, and they sat on it for a while, then came back and said, "We've approved this - AS THE MAIN SERIES." They didn't tell him way, from what he said.

Um what way?

[millernumber1]

Um what way?

Whoops, that should have been "why" not "way." My bad.

[The Dying Detective]

Whoops, that should have been "why" not "way." My bad.

Looks like no matter howmuch influence you have as a writer DC will still do their head scratching ideas no matter what. They didn't tell why Stephanie could be brought back from the dead to be redeemed and they won't tell Tom King why did the War of Jokes and Riddles had to be part of the main series. They need new leaders but even then there is no guarantee that it will work as evident by C.B. Cebulski's desire to bring back two series that failed witht eh same creative team who ruined them though allegedly they did well in trades.

[Deffinition]

I am quite enjoying it, his stories always feel like they fail to climax slightly because of the restrictions of working within the smaller issues that rebirth allows for. The personal levels that his stories go to cannot be faulted though and I think he has provided some interesting takes such as a joker that cannot laugh and Bruce and Selinas wedding

[millernumber1]

Just a request: if you are going to post spoilers, please use spoiler tags. There are many thread participants who are not caught up.