King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[millernumber1]

I think that's correct and I guess it's a slippery slope of whether emotional manipulation is a form of mind control as inducing intense feelings may make a person act in a manner they might not otherwise. So, part of me says that it is mind control, considering how people may act out of character thanks to intense feelings of anxiety, fear, love, etc.

This kind of wades into similar territory as Identity Crisis and Zatanna's mind wipe of Selina and how that made her question her disposition of villain to anti-hero and her feelings toward Batman.

If Psycho Pirate is involved (and King is saying he is) this might bring up Bruce and Selina having to reexamine if their actual (versus manipulated) feelings for one another and if they truly love one another. It could get even more messy if only one of them (Batman or Catwoman) was manipulated by Psycho Pirate and the other was simply reacting with their true feelings.

A few different paths that this could take that would but both characters through the wringer of romance before this story is over. I live for the drama and emotional messiness and the "what ifs" of this story and this couple. (But, I'm rooting for them all the way.)

I'm not a huge fan of mind control stories, because of this very issue, but I think King's definitely playing with that idea with some, if not all of the characters involved!

At this point Booster Gold would probably be happy to be a spokesperson for it. Haha...

I don't know much about Booster other than 52, honestly, but the Booster from the first half of that series would definitely be up for it!

My take is he's (King's) playing the long game (obviously) in the Batman versus Bane and Batman and Catwoman overarching storylines to his entire run. There's just a lot we don't know yet, in terms of what Bane defines as "breaking the Bat" and how he apparently considers him broken (again), more so emotionally this time over physically and emotionally in Bane's first-ever throw down with the Bat way back when.

I'm trying to consider all the misdirection that Bane could have been doing during his early part in the run and when exactly he decided to instigate this plan. And honestly, how he might have been manipulated...or manipulated himself. I know King said it's all about Bane, but I'm also considering that just because he's sitting on the throne at the end of #50 doesn't mean he put himself there. Could he be being manipulated as well? Just something that popped into my head - not sure if I'm going to take it as a serious option or take on the situation yet, besides being my own wild creativity.

Lots of layers to my way of thinking and that their first confrontation in this run was, yes psychological, but also directly confrontation and physical. After that it's been all emotional and psychological manipulation from a distance with many tools and participants. (Gives me a little bit of a Black Glove vibe.)

To me that sets up their next encounters very differently from their first encounters with a different aspect of how that damage he's caused will play out, based on where the characters are now and what may or may not have happened to them while being manipulated.

Well, we know that Bane ordered Psycho Pirate to manipulate him so he didn't need Venom anymore. So we'll have to see if Psycho Pirate played Bane as well for his own purposes. I think that would be pretty nifty - though Psycho Pirate is kind of a blank slate in terms of his personality and motivations right now in King's run.

I honestly prefer the way King's going to the way Morrison's going. There's a sense of reality and sympathy in Bane's plans, that I never got in Simon Hurt and the Black Glove. But that could be because Morrison leaned much more heavily on mind control/supernatural/drug manipulation than King is so far.

I'm really curious to see when Batman or Catwoman will realize what's going on with Bane. King mentioned Daredevil: Born Again, the perfect moment where Matt says, "Perfect crime. You shouldn't have signed it." I really hope we get a moment like that, where Bane overplays his hand, and Batman realizes that Bane's signing his work. Maybe that's part of the upcoming KGBeast arc?

[WonderScott]

I'm not a huge fan of mind control stories, because of this very issue, but I think King's definitely playing with that idea with some, if not all of the characters involved!



I don't know much about Booster other than 52, honestly, but the Booster from the first half of that series would definitely be up for it!



Well, we know that Bane ordered Psycho Pirate to manipulate him so he didn't need Venom anymore. So we'll have to see if Psycho Pirate played Bane as well for his own purposes. I think that would be pretty nifty - though Psycho Pirate is kind of a blank slate in terms of his personality and motivations right now in King's run.

I honestly prefer the way King's going to the way Morrison's going. There's a sense of reality and sympathy in Bane's plans, that I never got in Simon Hurt and the Black Glove. But that could be because Morrison leaned much more heavily on mind control/supernatural/drug manipulation than King is so far.

I'm really curious to see when Batman or Catwoman will realize what's going on with Bane. King mentioned Daredevil: Born Again, the perfect moment where Matt says, "Perfect crime. You shouldn't have signed it." I really hope we get a moment like that, where Bane overplays his hand, and Batman realizes that Bane's signing his work. Maybe that's part of the upcoming KGBeast arc?

The mind control bit doesn't bother me too much as a superhero device if it's an extra "nudge" that intensifies a direction a character might have leaned toward already.

Agreed about Psycho Pirate being blank slate-ish - he's not been a compelling Batman villain in the past. So, I'm not sure what his long game would be to playing Bane and Batman via Bane. It's kind of an empath for me to go down, but I like to throw out all my ideas and impulses (even the bad ones) on my whiteboard of motivations and character connections when trying to play detective.

Agreed on King's handling and your assessment of Bane versus Morrison's of Doctor Hurt - if any comparisons hand be made between the Cabal of Heartache and the Black Glove. The use of Psycho Pirate's powers are turning Bane a little inside out as well as Batman. It makes for an interesting parallel and juxtaposition. Is Bane or Batman becoming more whole as being through the use of Psycho Pirate's influence or less? <rhetorical> I guess we'll find out.

Regarding Batman and Catwoman figuring it out - SO AM I. So much to explore there and for them to come back stronger than ever against their foes. "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" and all that.

It's got to be a pivotal scene when Batman figures out or gets and inkling of what's going on. At least I hope King plays it that way, if for no other reason than my reading satisfaction. But, he may be wily and start having Batman play along and we won't know it until he provides his masterstroke to bring down the villains.

Regardless, some fun times ahead for reading the series and trying to figure out who is playing who and what Batman knows and doesn't know.

[millernumber1]

So, it's been about 6 months! The combination of the CBR service meltdown and distractions elsewhere have caused this thread to fall behind!

But, with the Knightmares arc taking a break in the middle, I'm wondering if people have positive thoughts or analysis about what's going on. I personally have to admit I didn't like the first issue (#61), but I really enjoyed the Pygmalion metaphor in #62, and #63 really hit me in a lot of emotional places. I find the idea that Batman believes he "created" his Batfamily intriguing, and wonder if part of King's journey will be Bruce being able to accept emotionally the agency and injury of his family better. The images (in Janin's art!) of Bat and Cat as a married couple were so beautiful and painful. I'm not a huge Constantine guy, but I liked the element his voice provided, and I am deeply intrigued to see if King underlines or undermines the idea that happiness isn't worth it because everyone dies. I am hopeful he will undermine that idea - that the happiness is the point of the whole thing - but we'll have to wait and see!

[Chubistian]

To sum up my thought about Knightmares pretty quickly, I’ve been enjoying it, especially as things get clearer. Probably the first part took me more off balance than the rest, basically because it felt as coming out of nowhere given the cliffhanger with Flashpoint Batman/Thomas Wayne. But now I’m enjoying it much more and it’s nice to have arotative art team justified by the plot. Also, a great oportunity to play with some different writing techniques. I learned a long time ago to be patient with King’s Batman, better suited for the trade, kind of like serialized manga

[millernumber1]

To sum up my thought about Knightmares pretty quickly, I’ve been enjoying it, especially as things get clearer. Probably the first part took me more off balance than the rest, basically because it felt as coming out of nowhere given the cliffhanger with Flashpoint Batman/Thomas Wayne. But now I’m enjoying it much more and it’s nice to have arotative art team justified by the plot. Also, a great oportunity to play with some different writing techniques. I learned a long time ago to be patient with King’s Batman, better suited for the trade, kind of like serialized manga

Patience is definitely the virtue for a King series. I'm used to a year-long (or longer, with Mister Miracle) waits, but four full years for his 105 issue run is a lot longer.

I think the drips of information we're getting with #62 and 63 make it feel more connected to the end of The Tyrant Wing (which I loved, by the way). Totally agree about the rotating artists - I'm incredibly excited about Lee Weeks again, as one might expect from me, but Amanda Connor sounds really interesting on the main title!

There was something about issue 63 that also really hit some emotional stuff for me that made it satisfying on its own, too. It's part of a larger puzzle, but I think King really is trying to make an issue that's worth your money by itself, and not just as part of a 105-issue arc (at a whopping 400 bucks )

[David Walton]

It's got to be a pivotal scene when Batman figures out or gets and inkling of what's going on. At least I hope King plays it that way, if for no other reason than my reading satisfaction. But, he may be wily and start having Batman play along and we won't know it until he provides his masterstroke to bring down the villains.

I'm a sucker for stories where you think the hero is falling into the villain's trap and it turns out they've been in control of the situation far longer than anyone suspected.

[millernumber1]

I'm a sucker for stories where you think the hero is falling into the villain's trap and it turns out they've been in control of the situation far longer than anyone suspected.

Those are pretty great stories. I think that's part of the appeal of Batman RIP, though I wish Morrison had been able to pull off a similar effect with Batman Inc vol 2.

Right now, we have the reverse of that - Bane seemed to fall into Batman's trap, but turns out...he was in control of the situation from before the start of the run!

[David Walton]

Those are pretty great stories. I think that's part of the appeal of Batman RIP, though I wish Morrison had been able to pull off a similar effect with Batman Inc vol 2.

Right now, we have the reverse of that - Bane seemed to fall into Batman's trap, but turns out...he was in control of the situation from before the start of the run!

Ha, you're right! That's exactly what Bane pulled off. All I ask is that Batman reverse Bane's reversal which will of course lead to this moment:

[millernumber1]

Ha, you're right! That's exactly what Bane pulled off. All I ask is that Batman reverse Bane's reversal which will of course lead to this moment:

I hope so! A moment where Batman looks into Bane's eyes and says,

"I'M BATMAN"

and Bane realizes that he has been bested...

Yeah!

[Chubistian]

Patience is definitely the virtue for a King series. I'm used to a year-long (or longer, with Mister Miracle) waits, but four full years for his 105 issue run is a lot longer.

I think the drips of information we're getting with #62 and 63 make it feel more connected to the end of The Tyrant Wing (which I loved, by the way). Totally agree about the rotating artists - I'm incredibly excited about Lee Weeks again, as one might expect from me, but Amanda Connor sounds really interesting on the main title!

There was something about issue 63 that also really hit some emotional stuff for me that made it satisfying on its own, too. It's part of a larger puzzle, but I think King really is trying to make an issue that's worth your money by itself, and not just as part of a 105-issue arc (at a whopping 400 bucks )

I really like how each issue is defining itself as something selfcontained, while playing a larger game when added one after the other. I don’t recall exactly the Master Bruce one, but the Pyg issue had the thriller angle. Given that King has avoid using Voice Off as a direct insight into Bruce’s thought, contrary to Snyder, the reader could inmediately detect that something was wrong, which was reinforced by the things Bruce was thinking. Kudos to making Bruce unable to hear anything but his thoughts up until the end. The Constantine issue was in a total different plane, but just as good, thanks to “Constantine”’s dialogue. Sadly we will have to wait to see how things keep going, but gladly Williamson’s crossover seems like will have more pieces to King’s puzzle, guessing by Gotham Girl’s appearence

[Scott Taylor]

Part of me does hope that Batman has had some kind of back up plan all along and its going to kick in and ignite a big reversal of fortune for Bane. I mean, we know Batman is eventually going to win and so the only question is how will it happen. And when.

Because we've seen Morrison get Bruce out of a similar situation through "Batgod", basically, and Snyder did the alternative of the "Batman gives up and becomes normal" angle, I'd like to see King do something different. Maybe have Batman actually overcome the challenge through sheer willpower, detective work and cunning.

Either way I'm on board because this has been a very interesting ride so far.

[millernumber1]

I really like how each issue is defining itself as something selfcontained, while playing a larger game when added one after the other. I don’t recall exactly the Master Bruce one, but the Pyg issue had the thriller angle. Given that King has avoid using Voice Off as a direct insight into Bruce’s thought, contrary to Snyder, the reader could inmediately detect that something was wrong, which was reinforced by the things Bruce was thinking. Kudos to making Bruce unable to hear anything but his thoughts up until the end. The Constantine issue was in a total different plane, but just as good, thanks to “Constantine”’s dialogue. Sadly we will have to wait to see how things keep going, but gladly Williamson’s crossover seems like will have more pieces to King’s puzzle, guessing by Gotham Girl’s appearence

That's a really good point about the voice over being an indication of something being wrong. I kind of like it, largely because I think I like King's Bruce voice. It's got the dark spareness of Miller, lacks the cockiness of Snyder, and is a lot more emotional than Morrison (not that Morrison avoided emotion, because he had some very good moments of emotion, especially in RIP, but there's a certain detachedness about most of Morrison's voices) - and it doesn't go overboard with the noir like Miller did in All Star Batman.

I'm actually really curious about the Gotham Girl stuff...I'm hoping that unlike The Button, which ended with a confusing seeming lack of any real progress (though Flashpoint Batman was clearly something that paid off much later, and is still paying off now), The Last Cold Case or whatever they're calling it now will have a meaningful conclusion.

Part of me does hope that Batman has had some kind of back up plan all along and its going to kick in and ignite a big reversal of fortune for Bane. I mean, we know Batman is eventually going to win and so the only question is how will it happen. And when.

Because we've seen Morrison get Bruce out of a similar situation through "Batgod", basically, and Snyder did the alternative of the "Batman gives up and becomes normal" angle, I'd like to see King do something different. Maybe have Batman actually overcome the challenge through sheer willpower, detective work and cunning.

Either way I'm on board because this has been a very interesting ride so far.

I hope that Batman recovers his balance and makes a plan for the last 20 or so issues of the run that is only revealed in issue 100.

I feel that King leans a lot more towards Snyder's "Batman is just a man who does his best and is a great prepper and improvisor" than Morrison's "Batman's prep is INSANE", but I am curious to see how he forges his own path in the "who is Batman" thing.

[Yohei72]

Guess I should chip in since I was the one whining elsewhere about how this thread had sunk into obscurity while King gets savaged in the "regular" issue-by-issue discussions. Thanks for waking it up again, Millernumber1.

Like I was saying there, Batman is one of the very few mainstream superhero books I'm actually excited about picking up - where before each issue I'm saying "I wonder what's going to happen - this is going to be interesting!" So many DC and Marvel books seem to be doing a slick, competent job of running in place, while King is doing things I've rarely or never seen before in that space. How often in a big cape book do I turn the pages in surprise, wondering exactly what's happening and digging for clues to try to piece it together? But that's what I've been doing for the past three issues of this one. As someone mentioned in #63 discussion thread, most dream/hallucination stories wrap in one issue... I guess I can understand why some people find King's "dragging it out" annoying, but I'm loving the high-wire daring of this structure.

I do have to say that I was a little disappointed to see Pyg barely used at all, in the sense that his unique voice wasn't really in #62, despite his constant presence. When I heard King and Gerads were bringing him back, I was jazzed - one of my favorite supervillains. But the issue was so powerful that I didn't really end up minding.

I'm having trouble seeing how Williamson is going to shoehorn in what looks like a totally separate story in the middle of this, but... we'll see. At least it'll be over in a month. #$%^in' crossover events...

[millernumber1]

Guess I should chip in since I was the one whining elsewhere about how this thread had sunk into obscurity while King gets savaged in the "regular" issue-by-issue discussions. Thanks for waking it up again, Millernumber1.

Like I was saying there, Batman is one of the very few mainstream superhero books I'm actually excited about picking up - where before each issue I'm saying "I wonder what's going to happen - this is going to be interesting!" So many DC and Marvel books seem to be doing a slick, competent job of running in place, while King is doing things I've rarely or never seen before in that space. How often in a big cape book do I turn the pages in surprise, wondering exactly what's happening and digging for clues to try to piece it together? But that's what I've been doing for the past three issues of this one. As someone mentioned in #63 discussion thread, most dream/hallucination stories wrap in one issue... I guess I can understand why some people find King's "dragging it out" annoying, but I'm loving the high-wire daring of this structure.

I do have to say that I was a little disappointed to see Pyg barely used at all, in the sense that his unique voice wasn't really in #62, despite his constant presence. When I heard King and Gerads were bringing him back, I was jazzed - one of my favorite supervillains. But the issue was so powerful that I didn't really end up minding.

I'm having trouble seeing how Williamson is going to shoehorn in what looks like a totally separate story in the middle of this, but... we'll see. At least it'll be over in a month. #$%^in' crossover events...

Of course!

I agree that King provides something you just don't get from most mainstream superhero books. The interest of an indie book with the action and budget of Batman.

I do think there's a little bit of a worry about using big name characters like Pyg and Constantine when it's all a dream, so they're not really there (plus the Bat/Cat stuff), but I think emotionally it works quite well.

My understanding is that The Price (the Batman/Flash crossover) is going to be set before Knightmares, so I think that's how it will work. (I also predict a fair number of "at least it's not King" comments in the discussion threads).

[Yohei72]

I do think there's a little bit of a worry about using big name characters like Pyg and Constantine when it's all a dream, so they're not really there (plus the Bat/Cat stuff), but I think emotionally it works quite well.

Yeah, I did find Constantine a bit arbitrary in the end - it seems like you almost could have slotted any character in there. On the other hand, that's how dreams often work - I get relatives I haven't talked to in years, or occasionally old classmates I haven't thought about in decades, wandering through. And King did get his voice down well (and Constantine is one of the minority of comics heroes to have a really great, distinctive voice).

My understanding is that The Price (the Batman/Flash crossover) is going to be set before Knightmares, so I think that's how it will work.

I thought that was the most likely answer. Hmm, does seem to introduce the problem that there's a limit to how much big, important stuff can happen storywise. I repeat, #$%^in' crossover events!