King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[millernumber1]

Yeah, I did find Constantine a bit arbitrary in the end - it seems like you almost could have slotted any character in there. On the other hand, that's how dreams often work - I get relatives I haven't talked to in years, or occasionally old classmates I haven't thought about in decades, wandering through. And King did get his voice down well (and Constantine is one of the minority of comics heroes to have a really great, distinctive voice).


I thought that was the most likely answer. Hmm, does seem to introduce the problem that there's a limit to how much big, important stuff can happen storywise. I repeat, #$%^in' crossover events!

Ah, comics timelines! And yes, crossovers like The Price, The Button, and Night of the Monster Men really mess up the timeframe of stuff.

I did enjoy the way King wrote Constantine's voice, and had Batman express his feelings about John.

[Yohei72]

Ugh, Night of the Monster Men. That might be my pick for the blandest non-event "event" I've ever read.

[millernumber1]

It was really disappointing. Especially since King worked really hard to set it up. Eh, but some people liked it a lot.

[Chubistian]

Night of the Monster Men was pretty bland, though I didn’t like the idea to begin with I tried to keep an open mind, but still I ended up dissapointed. I really like Hugo Strange, so it was a let down that I Am Gotham amounted to that crossover. My problem with The Button is different, as I think it is a more solid event, but it came down to nothing. You could feel the editorial restraints that didn’t let anything important happen, at least not in the magnitude it was hyped, but at least now the Thomas Wayne stuff is paying off. I can’t comment on the Reverse Flash plot because I don’t read the monthly Flash title

[Katana500]

Whats everyone's theory for what happens in the big issue 75. Im looking forward!

[Inversed]

Whats everyone's theory for what happens in the big issue 75. Im looking forward!

My theory is 75 is the reunion between Batman & Catwoman and possibly the start of a crossover between those two books. King mentioned in an interview last year he and Jones have been working on one so we know it's happening. He's also said 75 is the start of a new arc with a secret title. I'm also believing that "The Fall And The Fallen" (#70-74) will be about Bruce recovering from coming out of the Knightmares, so them seeing each other again seems to make the most sense to me of what would help complete the healing process.

There's also the question of if Bruce is captured by Bane and they're injecting him with the Scarecrow gas while tied up somewhere, or if he's still in the Batcave hallucinating, which will effect what I think "The Fall And The Fallen" will end up being.

Also regarding "The Last Cold Case", King has stated that Heroes In Crisis takes place between #54 and 55 (before Nightwing gets shot), so I assume this crossover will be taking place at the same time, which should help people confused about where it stands in the timeline.

[millernumber1]

Whats everyone's theory for what happens in the big issue 75. Im looking forward!

Well, I think clearly 70-74 will be a fight between Batman and Flashpoint Batman. What we know is coming:

Something bad (DC Nation indicated that 75 was NOT going to be happy)
Catwoman and Batman reuniting...but I think that just means they will be meeting again, not getting together again
Batman's death

We have 25+5 (so far) issues afterwards. I really doubt that King will kill Batman with 25 issues to go (though maybe he thinks he's going to try a Return of Bruce Wayne style event afterwards?), and I really doubt that he'll get Batman and Catwoman back together in a good way with 25 issues to go.

So I think it's likely he'll see Catwoman again (since #24 and 50 were both massive Batman/Catwoman events), but it will make things worse.

My theory is 75 is the reunion between Batman & Catwoman and possibly the start of a crossover between those two books. King mentioned in an interview last year he and Jones have been working on one so we know it's happening. He's also said 75 is the start of a new arc with a secret title. I'm also believing that "The Fall And The Fallen" (#70-74) will be about Bruce recovering from coming out of the Knightmares, so them seeing each other again seems to make the most sense to me of what would help complete the healing process.

There's also the question of if Bruce is captured by Bane and they're injecting him with the Scarecrow gas while tied up somewhere, or if he's still in the Batcave hallucinating, which will effect what I think "The Fall And The Fallen" will end up being.

Also regarding "The Last Cold Case", King has stated that Heroes In Crisis takes place between #54 and 55 (before Nightwing gets shot), so I assume this crossover will be taking place at the same time, which should help people confused about where it stands in the timeline.

I am almost completely positive that it won't be a crossover. King does not work well with crossovers (it's one of the reasons he didn't finish The Button).

"The Price" (the new name for The Last Cold Case per advertisements in this week's comics) takes place after the main events in HiC, though I don't know if it's before the end of that event, or not. But it definitely takes place before Knightmares. And I think there's plenty of room for that. King hasn't plotted his stuff so tightly that there aren't plausible gaps between issues from 51-59.

[Inversed]

Well, I think clearly 70-74 will be a fight between Batman and Flashpoint Batman. What we know is coming:

Something bad (DC Nation indicated that 75 was NOT going to be happy)
Catwoman and Batman reuniting...but I think that just means they will be meeting again, not getting together again
Batman's death

We have 25+5 (so far) issues afterwards. I really doubt that King will kill Batman with 25 issues to go (though maybe he thinks he's going to try a Return of Bruce Wayne style event afterwards?), and I really doubt that he'll get Batman and Catwoman back together in a good way with 25 issues to go.

So I think it's likely he'll see Catwoman again (since #24 and 50 were both massive Batman/Catwoman events), but it will make things worse.

I honestly hope he doesn't go for killing Batman/putting Bruce Wayne out of commission, just because this will be the third run in a row where something like this has happened, after both Morrison and Snyder. I agree they won't immediately get back together in 75, but they will see each other again.

Flashpoint Batman being the climax of this year does make the most sense, since it seems most likely he'd be saving Bane for the very end, though I wonder if this'll mean another 25 issues of buildup for that, or a new surprise issue that they'll have to deal with occurs.

I am almost completely positive that it won't be a crossover. King does not work well with crossovers (it's one of the reasons he didn't finish The Button).

"The Price" (the new name for The Last Cold Case per advertisements in this week's comics) takes place after the main events in HiC, though I don't know if it's before the end of that event, or not. But it definitely takes place before Knightmares. And I think there's plenty of room for that. King hasn't plotted his stuff so tightly that there aren't plausible gaps between issues from 51-59.

The 75 arc may not be a crossover, but King himself said in an interview he was working on one with Joelle Jones. But of course anything could have changed since then.

I would assume to avoid spoilers the story would be taking place sometime before the end of the event. HiC #6 is supposed to reveal who/what the killer is, and since that's also being released this month maybe that'll play into the arc? Either way, I think it makes the most sense it happens before Nightwing gets shot, because even by King's admission, Batman during HiC isn't as self-destructive as he has been currently.

[millernumber1]

I honestly hope he doesn't go for killing Batman/putting Bruce Wayne out of commission, just because this will be the third run in a row where something like this has happened, after both Morrison and Snyder. I agree they won't immediately get back together in 75, but they will see each other again.

Flashpoint Batman being the climax of this year does make the most sense, since it seems most likely he'd be saving Bane for the very end, though I wonder if this'll mean another 25 issues of buildup for that, or a new surprise issue that they'll have to deal with occurs.

The 75 arc may not be a crossover, but King himself said in an interview he was working on one with Joelle Jones. But of course anything could have changed since then.

I would assume to avoid spoilers the story would be taking place sometime before the end of the event. HiC #6 is supposed to reveal who/what the killer is, and since that's also being released this month maybe that'll play into the arc? Either way, I think it makes the most sense it happens before Nightwing gets shot, because even by King's admission, Batman during HiC isn't as self-destructive as he has been currently.

I personally agree with you - I'm tired of dead Batman. But King has said that Morrison told him he has to kill Batman, just like he told Snyder he had to kill Batman, so it's gonna happen.

Climax of this year? In December? Won't that be in the 80s?

Jones is working on Walmart Swamp Thing, so I don't think she'll be up for a Batman issue for a while.

I just did an arc length breakdown of King's run up to 75, and I have no idea how he's going to structure after that. His pattern for the first 32 was 5-7 issue arcs with interlude one or two shots. After War of Jokes and Riddles, he seems to have focused almost entirely on 2-3 shot arcs. But Fall and the Fallen is a 5-part arc, just like the first trilogy of arcs. So...I'm completely stumped on trying to predict how he's going to structure the next 25 + 5 issues.

Gotham - 1, 5, 1
Suicide - 5, 2 (Annual 1 story)
Bane - 5, 1, 1
War - 8 (6, 2)
Engagement - 3, 2 (Annual 2)
Bride - 1, 2, 3, 1
Wedding - 3, 2, 1
Cold Days - 3, 1, 3
Tyrant Wing - 3 (secret files story)
Knightmares - 7 (or 7 ones)
Fall and the Fallen - 5

What I'm really curious about is - do you think he's really going to have Batman and Kite Man in a bar in issue 105? I hope so!

Where has King said that Batman in Heroes in Crisis is slightly less self destructive than normal Batman post-Wedding?

[Inversed]

I personally agree with you - I'm tired of dead Batman. But King has said that Morrison told him he has to kill Batman, just like he told Snyder he had to kill Batman, so it's gonna happen.

Climax of this year? In December? Won't that be in the 80s?

Jones is working on Walmart Swamp Thing, so I don't think she'll be up for a Batman issue for a while.

I just did an arc length breakdown of King's run up to 75, and I have no idea how he's going to structure after that. His pattern for the first 32 was 5-7 issue arcs with interlude one or two shots. After War of Jokes and Riddles, he seems to have focused almost entirely on 2-3 shot arcs. But Fall and the Fallen is a 5-part arc, just like the first trilogy of arcs. So...I'm completely stumped on trying to predict how he's going to structure the next 25 + 5 issues.

Gotham - 1, 5, 1
Suicide - 5, 2 (Annual 1 story)
Bane - 5, 1, 1
War - 8 (6, 2)
Engagement - 3, 2 (Annual 2)
Bride - 1, 2, 3, 1
Wedding - 3, 2, 1
Cold Days - 3, 1, 3
Tyrant Wing - 3 (secret files story)
Knightmares - 7 (or 7 ones)
Fall and the Fallen - 5

What I'm really curious about is - do you think he's really going to have Batman and Kite Man in a bar in issue 105? I hope so!

Where has King said that Batman in Heroes in Crisis is slightly less self destructive than normal Batman post-Wedding?

I just hope if he does, he does something very unique with it, people have already been calling his run just "another Knightfall" and I'm worried that may lead to even more comparisons.

Every quarter of the run takes place over the course of about a year, so that's why I like to categorize them like so, you have June 2016-June 2017 (#1-24) as the first year, June 2017-July 2018 (#25-50) is the second year, July 2018-July 2019 (#51-74) is the third year, and July 2019-October 2020 (#75-105) is the fourth year. Also each quarter has its own thematic through line that represents an act in one full story. The first about Batman discovering what he really wants, the second is about the Rise in his confidence, the third is the Fall with his self-destruction, and the fourth seems most likely to be his Redemption, building himself back up.

That's why I'm curious how he will be handling the buildup to 100, because he loves doing the shorter arcs and one-shots, which tend to be some of his best, but I don't know how you'd be able to fit those in, when by that point you would think dealing with Bane would be priority #1.

I just hope he actually goes through with it and makes his #105 a variant cover. Everyone would eat it up!

On Twitter someone asked him where HiC takes place relative to the main Batman book, because they thought Batman seemed, for lack of a better term, "more cheery" than he was currently, and King said between 54 and 55, since Nightwing getting shot was the thing that helped tip him over the edge.

[charliehustle415]

I personally agree with you - I'm tired of dead Batman. But King has said that Morrison told him he has to kill Batman, just like he told Snyder he had to kill Batman, so it's gonna happen.

Climax of this year? In December? Won't that be in the 80s?

Jones is working on Walmart Swamp Thing, so I don't think she'll be up for a Batman issue for a while.

I just did an arc length breakdown of King's run up to 75, and I have no idea how he's going to structure after that. His pattern for the first 32 was 5-7 issue arcs with interlude one or two shots. After War of Jokes and Riddles, he seems to have focused almost entirely on 2-3 shot arcs. But Fall and the Fallen is a 5-part arc, just like the first trilogy of arcs. So...I'm completely stumped on trying to predict how he's going to structure the next 25 + 5 issues.

Gotham - 1, 5, 1
Suicide - 5, 2 (Annual 1 story)
Bane - 5, 1, 1
War - 8 (6, 2)
Engagement - 3, 2 (Annual 2)
Bride - 1, 2, 3, 1
Wedding - 3, 2, 1
Cold Days - 3, 1, 3
Tyrant Wing - 3 (secret files story)
Knightmares - 7 (or 7 ones)
Fall and the Fallen - 5

What I'm really curious about is - do you think he's really going to have Batman and Kite Man in a bar in issue 105? I hope so!

Where has King said that Batman in Heroes in Crisis is slightly less self destructive than normal Batman post-Wedding?

Man, you gotta love Morrison. I didn't even know he was telling Batman writers to kill Bats; amazing. I wonder though if for King "killing" Bats will be metaphorical which seems the way it's going now in the Knightmares arc.

[millernumber1]

Man, you gotta love Morrison. I didn't even know he was telling Batman writers to kill Bats; amazing. I wonder though if for King "killing" Bats will be metaphorical which seems the way it's going now in the Knightmares arc.

Ya. I think the only people it's clear he told to kill Batman were Snyder and King.

I've toyed with the metaphorical thing in my head - to be fair, no writer has really "killed" Batman in a really final way, in my mind. I know he was technically dead after Endgame, but the whole fake Lazarus Pit thing seems like he wasn't really that dead.

[Yohei72]

I know he was technically dead after Endgame, but the whole fake Lazarus Pit thing seems like he wasn't really that dead.

Yeah, if you kill your lead character and your lead villain in a place that brings people back from the dead, it's pretty obvious what direction things are going.

[Inversed]

Yeah I feel like what's going on in Knightmares is probably the perfect way of "killing" Batman, without redoing what Knightfall, Morrison, and Snyder did in putting Bruce out of commission.

[Hilden B. Lade]

As confirmed by King on Twitter recently, Doc Shaner will be drawing Batman soon:


I have a feeling that this might be part of the "Rise" part of King's storyline, with the classic imagery of Batman going through the gauntlet of his worst rogues.

Whatever Shaner and King are doing, I hope it's as great as their Darkseid War tie-in.

(On a side note: interesting seeing Ivy on the cover, given what's going on in Heroes in Crisis. I have a feeling the characters in this image are more for a symbolic purpose - aside from Croc, Man-Bat, and Hatter I think all of them have played some major role in King's story - than narrative teasing...)