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  1. #646
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    It's in some ways a ridiculous question - Batman's capacity to love has been shown over and over again (Robin Reborn, Identity Crisis comforting Tim, Sasha, any number of times w/Selina, Cassandra Batgirl #50, etc). But he's always turned or focused that love into the vow - fighting crime with that person. For Bruce, it's really just a question of if the person he's found thinks that's enough.

    I'm going to watch Mask of the Phantasm now. A much more concise "Batman finds the girl and she's taken away from him" story.
    As you say, there are dozens of examples where Batman loves. He isn't a machine. But his love tends to be obsessive with a fear of loss as its basis. So essentially what is being asked of Batman most of the time is to overcome his fear of loss and to stop trying to control everyone around him so he can be with the person that he loves. He went through this most recently, arguably, with Damien. Morrison had Bruce turn and focus that fatherly love into Batman Inc., and he ended up ultimately losing Damien (exactly what he feared). I do think it was shown that Damien found Bruce's love to be enough, but at the same time he saw it as self-destructive.

    Selena has brought out a different kind of love from what we have seen most of the time with Bruce - playful love. He gets so infatuated with her and her shenanigans that he'll drop his vow and ignore her crimes just to be with her. Joker might not have been that far off with his assessment. He should know, because he's one of the few who can also bring out Batman's playful side (granted in a "dark mirror" kind of sense).

    So while I do think the overall topic of how Batman deals with love is trodden ground, this story may deal with new aspects we have not seen before
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  2. #647
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    Totally agree. I think Knightmares has dragged a bit, but King's run has been largely enjoyable. I imagine when it's collected as part of an inevitable series of omnibuses, it'll read much better in large chunks.

    Completely unrelated, I miss Aaron Allston
    Honestly, the only issue of Knightmares that frustated me was the first one. I'm still really confused about how that one fits into the arc, but eh. I bet this fake Bruce Wayne kid is gonna be a player in the endgame somehow.

    I think King is working to balance the arc-part and the individual issue satisfaction much better these days. We'll see how it works in the next five and eight-issue arcs, which have been less successful for me.

    (Aaron Allston - I miss him so much. )
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  3. #648
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with Bane nude, but it clearly shows that he has become more concerned about what his enemies say about his body, since he's clean shaved/waxed and if we go back to his first appearances in comics, he had nothing to envy to Wolverine's body hair.

    Now, talking seriously, I liked that we got a little peak of the outside world and that we finally see Bane and Thomas interact. The sparring gave us an idea of how this duo work. To no one's surprise, it includes fists, blood and a gun.

    The dreaming sequence was mostly a sum up of the previous issues, but beautifully ilustrated and ended in an interesting way.

    Now that it concluded, I understand the necessity of the arc to let artists catch up with a bi-monthly schedule. It was hard to get use to it after such a big cliffhanger, but overall it was fine and had some good choices, like using different pencillers and adjust the story to their style and try different things every time.
    Last edited by Chubistian; 04-17-2019 at 03:53 PM.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  4. #649
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Read some fan reviews of #69 that posited that Bruce's greatest fear is that he doesn't love Selina. I took it much more to mean his greatest fear was that she felt he didn't.

    If the takeaway is that his greatest fear is that he can't love someone and be Batman at the same time, well, that was already in Selina's letter.

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Read some fan reviews of #69 that posited that Bruce's greatest fear is that he doesn't love Selina. I took it much more to mean his greatest fear was that she felt he didn't.

    If the takeaway is that his greatest fear is that he can't love someone and be Batman at the same time, well, that was already in Selina's letter.
    They can be somewhat related - if one thinks themselves unable of loving anyone, they might well think others don't love them, either. My reading was that his fear was she didn't love him, but that thought/fear comes from somewhere. Certainly her actions (leaving him with not much of an explanation) contribute, but he's been unsure of his love the entire time - his proposal hinted at this, the framing device of The War of Jokes and Riddles was more about Bruce's opinion of himself and his worthiness than it had anything to do w/what Selina thought about it.
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  6. #651
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Was his greatest fear that he couldn't love someone or that someone rejected his love for them? Selena could arguably have been doing the latter in his dream.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  7. #652
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Was his greatest fear that he couldn't love someone or that someone rejected his love for them? Selena could arguably have been doing the latter in his dream.
    My interpretation is that his greatest fear is that his love isn't strong enough, worthy enough to be accepted by Selina (or anyone). It goes back to the Pygmalion metaphor in issue #62, where Batman fears that he's created his family, and there's no real bonds there, just his own mind.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  8. #653
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Was his greatest fear that he couldn't love someone or that someone rejected his love for them? Selena could arguably have been doing the latter in his dream.
    I feel like itís both. Bruceís greatest fear will be that he canít love somebody enough so what he can give will always inevitably be rejected.

  9. #654
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Great food for thought there, guys. I'm going to re-read the whole thing again with those themes in mind.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  10. #655
    Reader of Stuff Hilden B. Lade's Avatar
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    An upcoming Janin art tease of the Batfamily in action, fully colored.

    https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...04501222973440

    Don't know if it's for a cover or interior art, but sucks that Nightwing is absent, as well as Spoiler.

    And someone also pointed out to me that Jason's MIA there as well.

  11. #656
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    I think Batman is afraid that he'll go out on patrol one night and there will be nobody to beat up on.

  12. #657
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilden B. Lade View Post
    An upcoming Janin art tease of the Batfamily in action, fully colored.

    https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...04501222973440

    Don't know if it's for a cover or interior art, but sucks that Nightwing is absent, as well as Spoiler.

    And someone also pointed out to me that Jason's MIA there as well.
    At Awesomecon today, King said that Steph had a tiny part in #71, and this was an interior page.

    2019-04-26 13.11.47-1.jpg
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  13. #658
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    It'll be good to see Steph. Starving people don't complain about crumbs.

  14. #659
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    I went back and read through the first 4 volumes to see if there was anything new I may have noticed now in hindsight.

    I Am Gotham:
    -I forgot that technically, this whole thing is Amanda Waller's fault. She gave the Psycho Pirate to Hugo Strange to "fix", and when he turns on her, she goes oh well, Batman'll fix my problem.
    -While it does seem fairly disconnected from most of the other story arcs, I did recognize alot of the themes of fear being a major factor, and how your life choices directly impact your desired direction, which has lasted through pretty much the whole book.

    Night Of The Monster Men:
    -People have been bringing up naked Bane alot recently, but they seem to forget we got naked Hugo Strange in this, this goes much deeper than we thought : p
    -While it is ultimately unimportant in the grand scheme of things, I'd say its at least somewhat important given it pays off all the Monster Men and Strange foreshadowing that takes up most of I Am Gotham

    I Am Suicide:
    -I like that Bane does seem very sincere in this story, I believe in this instance he genuinely just wants to use Psycho Pirate to remove his pain, and anything he does is just in retaliation to keep it that way.
    -Oh hey Jane Doe aka Saturn Girl is in this, and she draws the Legion symbol. Completely missed that the first couple of times.
    -Confession: First time I read the first letter I thought it was Bane writing to Bruce. I didn't realize until halfway through it was supposed to be Selina. I felt dumb.
    -I'm curious if someone has taken both the letters in here and then the letters from #50 and dissected them side by side to find any other hidden meetings, I haven't really noticed any reading em separately besides the obvious ones.

    Rooftops:
    -Looking at this story in hindsight, especially after #66 (the Question Knightmares issue), I see it as another rebuff of Selina's feelings that she brings Batman down, when this shows not only how effective they are at crime fighting, but how effortlessly they do it too. Another theme relating to the fear that most of the time isn't there.

    I Am Bane:
    -I do think the scene where he's beating down all the inmates in Arkham does add credence to Bane not having this complete plan from the beginning. Beating Batman in this instance does seem much more in fulfilling a revenge rather than all according to plan.

    The Button:
    -Saturn Girl showing up here now makes more sense remembering she pops up in Suicide.
    -Thomas here also does seem genuinely sincere about his feelings, which means any decisions leading to working with Bane must've come afterwards.

    The War Of Jokes And Riddles:
    -I still really love King's portrayal of the Joker, he's a much more "controlled" level of insane, and this unhappy version is really effective. Is whole life is death and chaos, and that's all just boring to him.
    -I'm wondering if we're due for a repeat of Batman being pushed as far as Riddler did to him in this.
    -Looking back on it, I see it as a reflection of the whole "Batman creates his villains" angle, in the sense of each of them needing a gimmick, and the lengths they will go in order to force that gimmick if they must. That's how the conflict starts, Riddler creating a riddle to force Joker to laugh, and that's how Kite Man is created, a gimmick for the sake of a gimmick.
    -And that also shows what else drives Batman and Catwoman together, they have their gimmicks, but they see each other beyond that, they just "be" rather than force themselves to "be".

    I did find it interesting overall that within the first year the book had a pretty good amount of references and interconnectedness with all the other Batman books (All-Star Batman, Detective Comics, Justice League), while in comparison the second and third years have been fairly self contained and not really mentioning other events, to the point where now currently all the Batman books are going in completely separate directions.

    I also keep forgetting just how much I really enjoy this series, reading them all in one go does wonders to the pacing in comparison to following it along bi-weekly. Suicide and Bane especially I think are incredibly fun stories, and I know Jokes & Riddles is fairly controversial, but that one's still really effective in its execution for me.
    (Also added thing, maybe its because Ive been reading some of Snyder's run recently as well, but David Finch's art kind of reminds me of Greg Capullo's a bit. That might also be why I really love it and Im still hoping he ends up coming back in some way to future issues)
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  15. #660
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    It'll be good to see Steph. Starving people don't complain about crumbs.
    You would be surprised.

    That being said, I try not to complain about crumbs! And I liked how King wrote Steph in Tec 1000.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

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