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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    Yeah but there's also the opposite to him being a jerk to those around him where Batfamily members are constantly crapping on him, berating him and being made out to be better than him. There's a reason a lot of fans have a problem with Detective and it's because they feel it's become the "Batman sucks and the writers pet Batfamily member is better" book. That's the reason I can't stand books where he's with the Batfamily because I know he's going to be portrayed as some villainous A hole who some precious little Batfamily member is going to put in his place.
    I don't know what's on Detective Comics since I don't read it, but what I know is fans of the bat family also don't like it when he's portrayed as an abusive a-hole, because then usually the bat family is the victim. Like the number of times Bruce punched Dick and refused to apologize, or how many Robins died to fuel angst in a Batman story, which they blame on the Robin for not following orders. So you all are actually on the same boat.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-16-2018 at 12:40 AM.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Huh.

    Nifty thread idea.

  3. #63
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I don't know what's on Detective Comics since I don't read it, but what I know is fans of the bat family also don't like it when he's portrayed as an abusive a-hole, because then usually the bat family is the victim. Like the number of times Bruce punched Dick and refused to apologize, or how many Robins died to fuel angst in a Batman story, which they blame on the Robin for not following orders. So you all are actually on the same boat.
    I usually get annoyed by Bruce being an absolute ass because I have a really, really hard time believing that he, witten that way, could be seen as a hero. Or heroic in any way, making really hard to sympathize with him. And this comming from a die hard Jason Todd fan, a character that had been a psychotic murderer.

    My problem with Tec was that it was too over the top too often, besides making big drama and words for somthing that in the end it did little actual impact. But it had nice moments.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 06-16-2018 at 02:46 AM. Reason: Adding stuff
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  4. #64
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Huh.

    Nifty thread idea.
    Thanks! Hope that people get back to analyzing and enjoying King's Batman again soon!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
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  5. #65
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    [FONT="]I am very much interested in the topic of this thread, but I’m afraid that I don’t have much to contribute at the moment. I am very behind on this series because I have been trying to read it by “act.” Upon hearing that King’s first 24 issues would be a trilogy and after completing the first story arc, I waited until issues 1-27 were available in trade to read in one sitting. After that, I waited for trade on the War of Jokes and Riddles. Now, I’ve been waiting until issue 50, where I intend to do a full read through of the series. I’ll be sure to post my thoughts here when I’m finished.

    However in the vein more of “enjoyment” than “analysis,” I would like to add for now this series’ personal affect on me. I really, really wanted to like this run based off King’s work on Grayson and Omega Men. However, as I was initially reading through the “I am Trilogy,” I found myself somewhat disappointed by the plot despite enjoying bits and pieces of it. But my opinion of the series was completely reversed by “Every Eplilogue is a Predlude.”

    The issue itself is good, though far from the highlight of King’s run, but it struck me very personally. Reading through that issue as Gotham Girl asks Batman about his motives and whether or not he is truly happy, I both immediately understood King’s message about Batman in the previous chapters and also realized that I saw a lot of myself in King’s Batman. I asked myself the same question that Gotham Girl had asked Batman. Was I happy? And the answer was no. I realized that I had never truly reached out to anyone for emotional support or made any effort to become involved in my life socially. And as Batman made an effort to pursue happiness, so have I over the past year. I’ve become inspired to take more risks and live a little. In doing so, I’ve made some mistakes but also had many wonderful experiences as a result of the self reflection inspired by this run.

    So it’s cheesy as hell, but this run means a lot to me (despite the disappointment that was TWoJaR ) and I’m looking forward to reading issues 33-49 for the first time as well as rereading the rereading the earlier issues of the run.
    [/FONT]
    It sounds to me like you have plenty to contribute! That's why I am trying to include my reread of the trades - so that it's not just what's going on in the current issue.

    Other people have posted that King's work on Batman has been intensely personally meaningful to them as well - so not cheesy at all! That's what good art is supposed to do for us.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    The thing that annoys me the most about Batgod complaints is definitely the hypocriscy. Whenever anyone says Superman should be less powerful some defend his strength by saying it's up to the writers to put him in situations that challenge him, that making him weaker isn't the answer. But Batman essentially being the human version of Superman somehow makes him a less human, relatable character. Using their argument instead of lessening Bruce's abilities shouldn't it be up to the writers to make a "OP Batgod" interesting.
    I think it depends on the scale. Like, I definitely do not want see Batman out running the Omega Sanction, judo throwing Kalibak (Grundy is a little different, as he's far more inconsistent to begin with), one punching Cheetah or zapping Circe's magic away. But seeing him match wits and out-strategize master criminals is always awesome, as is getting himself out of seemingly impossible situations. Return of Bruce Wayne is a perfect representation of that. Only he could have gotten himself that far out of that mess, but he was also smart enough to realize he needed Superman, Wonder Woman and the rest to deal with the Hyper Adapted because that was out of his league. It shows him as Bat-God among other Gods, needing help in some situations but surprising them with his own brilliance and willpower in others.

    So I love Bat-God in some situations. Its the "Batman can beat anyone with prep time" nonsense I dislike. Same with how much I love Super God and view him as the most overall powerful superhero in the DC pantheon, but still having more than enough things in his world (Lex's brilliance, the Phantom Zone Criminals, Brainiac, and especially Mxy) that he can't solve effortlessly. It's all down to scale.

  7. #67
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think it depends on the scale. Like, I definitely do not want see Batman out running the Omega Sanction, judo throwing Kalibak (Grundy is a little different, as he's far more inconsistent to begin with), one punching Cheetah or zapping Circe's magic away. But seeing him match wits and out-strategize master criminals is always awesome, as is getting himself out of seemingly impossible situations. Return of Bruce Wayne is a perfect representation of that. Only he could have gotten himself that far out of that mess, but he was also smart enough to realize he needed Superman, Wonder Woman and the rest to deal with the Hyper Adapted because that was out of his league. It shows him as Bat-God among other Gods, needing help in some situations but surprising them with his own brilliance and willpower in others.

    So I love Bat-God in some situations. Its the "Batman can beat anyone with prep time" nonsense I dislike. Same with how much I love Super God and view him as the most overall powerful superhero in the DC pantheon, but still having more than enough things in his world (Lex's brilliance, the Phantom Zone Criminals, Brainiac, and especially Mxy) that he can't solve effortlessly. It's all down to scale.
    I pretty much agree. I've never really been a fan of the "Batman is just a normal human" school of thought, because someone who sleeps 2 hours a night and 1) isn't insane, and 2) can still beat anyone in a fight just doesn't make sense as a normal human. Batman is strongly symbolic of the human will to fight evil, and most of his characteristics - his need but also difficulty in forming community in his mission, his inability to give up, etc - are part of that symbolism as well as part of the everyday "reality" of Batman.

    I think Tom King has done a really good job of balancing the prep-time and feats with weakness - it's funny, given all the rage about Batman's performance against Joker in #48, that King's Batman has done some pretty amazing things (rereading I Am Gotham helps give that perspective).
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  8. #68
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I pretty much agree. I've never really been a fan of the "Batman is just a normal human" school of thought, because someone who sleeps 2 hours a night and 1) isn't insane, and 2) can still beat anyone in a fight just doesn't make sense as a normal human. Batman is strongly symbolic of the human will to fight evil, and most of his characteristics - his need but also difficulty in forming community in his mission, his inability to give up, etc - are part of that symbolism as well as part of the everyday "reality" of Batman.

    I think Tom King has done a really good job of balancing the prep-time and feats with weakness - it's funny, given all the rage about Batman's performance against Joker in #48, that King's Batman has done some pretty amazing things (rereading I Am Gotham helps give that perspective).
    That's nothing compared to how people seem to dislike King's Joker as you can see by the Batman issue 48 complaints I don't really care about how different the Joker acts in different incarnations partly because it's unrealistic for a character to be written the same way all that time and can get dull. Writers need to be allowed to do their own spin on a corporate character or you end up boring people to death.
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  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Reposting here, because i usually like to talk about charactherization

    As he began to write more he realized he would never have enough time to read that much material. Instead he would read just enough of the material to get the essence of who the character is.

    “You have to know enough. You can’t just go in blind and make stuff up,“ he says. "You have to be grounded and read enough back story but a lot of hardcore comic book fans when they get into the business get obsessed with that thing that happened between panel two and three in that issue seven years ago. Eventually you sort of drop that and you start following the story.”

    No matter what that story may be, DeMatteis still stresses that you still need to respect the tradition of that character. “You can’t suddenly turn Batman or Constantine into something they’re not but if you’re just writing the way they’ve always been it’s pointless. It’s boring.”

    Well, to some degree they have to. Every character I write somehow reflects the truths of my psyche, in ways I often don’t realize. My Spider-Man isn’t Tom DeFalco’s isn’t Dan Slott’s. That said, there’s an ESSENCE of each character that has to remain. No matter who writes him, Peter Parker ihas to be…well, Peter Parker.

    I think one of the main challenges of writing these characters is finding the place where our own unique voices and the voices of the character meet. And I hope that made sense!
    This is from J.D Matteis, one of my favorite Spider-Man writters, who also (much like King) really enjoyed to give a phycological spin to their stories, Matteis in particular created the idea that Peter guilt issues came from some unconfronted feelings about the death of his biological parents during the story "The Child Within" whose main theme was denial and repression, i personally disagreed with that notion (Peter was too young to be able to cognitize something like that, so really he shouldn't feel any guilt about his parent's demise), but in spite of that his Spider-Man feel like well Spider-Man most of the time, at least in my opinion, King Batman sort of goes to the same direction for me, i don't agreed with a lot of his take, but his Batman doesn't sound completly alien to me, i guest than that is the problem that many fans has with his run.

  10. #70
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Batman's "tortured brooding" is just that... shallow and hollow if his issues aren't directly tackled with. I can't believe there exist fanboys are actually opposed to King having Bruce expose and explore his vulnerabilities in a way never dealt with before (though sales don't seem to suggest King's worst critics are anything other than a vocal minority).

    If Bruce isn't fleshed out, he will forever be overshadowed by his villains.

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Batman's "tortured brooding" is just that... shallow and hollow if his issues aren't directly tackled with. I can't believe there exist fanboys are actually opposed to King having Bruce expose and explore his vulnerabilities in a way never dealt with before (though sales don't seem to suggest King's worst critics are anything other than a vocal minority).

    If Bruce isn't fleshed out, he will forever be overshadowed by his villains.
    I had no problem with Bruce being vulnerable, i like his proposal to Selina and him trying to tell her about one of the things that he consider a deep shame, Batman has very hight expectations for himself, so when he think that he fails he is harded on himself more than anyone else, it was good to see him sharing something that he consider so personal to her.

  12. #72
    CBR got me like.. Maxpower00044's Avatar
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    There are a few things he’s done that I don’t agree with. A suicidal young Bruce wasn’t my favorite, nor was Batman attacking Riddler with a machete. That being said, I think his run has been a pretty great exploration of Batman trying to be happy. Stories like Rooftops, Brave and the Mold, Annual 2, and Elmer Fudd have been some of my favorite issues/arcs of this run.
    "The more 'realistic' superheroes become the less believable they are." - David Mazzucchelli

  13. #73
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Batman's "tortured brooding" is just that... shallow and hollow if his issues aren't directly tackled with. I can't believe there exist fanboys are actually opposed to King having Bruce expose and explore his vulnerabilities in a way never dealt with before (though sales don't seem to suggest King's worst critics are anything other than a vocal minority).

    If Bruce isn't fleshed out, he will forever be overshadowed by his villains.
    Well, to be fair, Bruce isn't really flashed out at all in King's run. Especially with him declaring that Bruce is the mask while Batman is his true self.

    And about "worst critics", they themselves admitted that they still buying it to complete their collection. So, the sales isn't really a prove that it's loved.

    Honestly, I think his run is decent and has some really strong points, but the characterizations is actually pretty weak and the themes are really shallow. Still, it has its moments.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I pretty much agree. I've never really been a fan of the "Batman is just a normal human" school of thought, because someone who sleeps 2 hours a night and 1) isn't insane, and 2) can still beat anyone in a fight just doesn't make sense as a normal human. Batman is strongly symbolic of the human will to fight evil, and most of his characteristics - his need but also difficulty in forming community in his mission, his inability to give up, etc - are part of that symbolism as well as part of the everyday "reality" of Batman.

    I think Tom King has done a really good job of balancing the prep-time and feats with weakness - it's funny, given all the rage about Batman's performance against Joker in #48, that King's Batman has done some pretty amazing things (rereading I Am Gotham helps give that perspective).
    Agreed. Also, these characters were created back in the 1940s in wish fulfillment stories for children, with impossible/batshit crazy challenges that they overcame. The big iconic characters predate "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" complaints and it doesn't really apply to them IMO. It can sometimes seem like adult fans want things toned down/more vulnerability because they don't allow their imaginations to embrace the absurdity of it and just have fun. See Grant Morrison's quote about kids being able to roll with the unbelievably of these things better than adults, and getting more enjoyment out of it.

    Batman is an over the top badass who is not realistic. The threats he faces are similarly over the top and unrealistic, so it balances out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Batman's "tortured brooding" is just that... shallow and hollow if his issues aren't directly tackled with. I can't believe there exist fanboys are actually opposed to King having Bruce expose and explore his vulnerabilities in a way never dealt with before (though sales don't seem to suggest King's worst critics are anything other than a vocal minority).
    It isn't even the first time Bruce's sanity/vulnerability has been questioned. See Arkham Asylun: SHOSE, which is way darker and fucked up and is one of the most successful graphic novels ever created.

    Him doing stuff like self harm as a child seems natural to me. A 10 year old exhibiting unhealthy behavior after witnessing his parents violently gunned down in front of him? What is so scandalous about that? It's not as if child!Bruce is a period of his life that gets a lot of consistent characterization/depth anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Well, to be fair, Bruce isn't really flashed out at all in King's run. Especially with him declaring that Bruce is the mask while Batman is his true self.
    It's been a while since I read the first few trades, is this addressed in-universe or just something King said in an interview? With Death of the Author in place, I don't know if I interpret Bruce being the mask in what I've seen. If Bruce regards himself that way...he's not exactly a reliable narrator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    And about "worst critics", they themselves admitted that they still buying it to complete their collection. So, the sales isn't really a prove that it's loved.
    I know it's part of the "collector mentality," but I personally don't get this at all. I have bills and shit to pay for, I can't imagine forking over my hard earned money to buy something I hate. I have a collection, but I collect stuff I actually enjoy reading. DC also can't distinguish what dollars come from people who love the run and those who are buying it out of some sort of obligation, so they are just sending the message that they want more of King's run.

  15. #75
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxpower00044 View Post
    There are a few things he’s done that I don’t agree with. A suicidal young Bruce wasn’t my favorite, nor was Batman attacking Riddler with a machete. That being said, I think his run has been a pretty great exploration of Batman trying to be happy. Stories like Rooftops, Brave and the Mold, Annual 2, and Elmer Fudd have been some of my favorite issues/arcs of this run.
    I actually really like exploring the idea of Batman failing in his no-killing belief, because he faces such intense evil. Maybe it's just me, because I hate the Joker so much, but I like the idea of Batman really struggling with his hatred for the pain these villains have caused for no good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Well, to be fair, Bruce isn't really flashed out at all in King's run. Especially with him declaring that Bruce is the mask while Batman is his true self.
    It's far from new to claim that Batman is the true expression of Bruce's self and morals and philosophy. Deathstroke just made this claim as well. It all depends on what you're trying to say. Because I love the symbolic nature of Batman, I like the idea that the symbol is actually also the reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I know it's part of the "collector mentality," but I personally don't get this at all. I have bills and shit to pay for, I can't imagine forking over my hard earned money to buy something I hate. I have a collection, but I collect stuff I actually enjoy reading. DC also can't distinguish what dollars come from people who love the run and those who are buying it out of some sort of obligation, so they are just sending the message that they want more of King's run.
    Same. I like the feeling of having a full run, but it's not worth it to continue on a title you know will never end like Batman or Tec or Superman or Action. That's money I could be buying things I actually like!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

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