King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[rev516]

Oh no. Now I'm worried, AGAIN.

[lilyrose]

Okay, that convinces me it's the marriage actually. It'll just happen in the Bat/Cat book (or at the end of the Batman run, and the new book is them being married).

[Scott Taylor]

Well, if you add Omega Men and Vision to that list, I think it's closer to 50/50. And this issue was a huge clarification - definitely supported my own interpretation of how things have been going from 1 to now.

Haven't read those two series, maybe I should. I do enjoy the different approach King has, and in spite of my confusion over Mr. Miracle's ending I did find it enjoyable.

This latest issue was, in nearly all respects, just a recap of the entire run with a backdrop of Bane fighting Batman. That it was told in Flashpoint Batman's voice doesn't add much. And Bane's plan doesn't feel all that impressive because so many things "just worked out" without his direct manipulation. He didn't really earn his victory here so much as luck into it by being right about a series of assumptions. Most of which we've seen villains make before and fail miserably.

Plus it still feels like RIP, to me. Not much here is new or unique compared with that, and RIP was a much tighter and well constructed story.

But those negatives aside, this story still may end up being worthwhile depending on how Batman comes out of it.

[Clark_Kent]

Okay, that convinces me it's the marriage actually. It'll just happen in the Bat/Cat book (or at the end of the Batman run, and the new book is them being married).

This is what I'm thinking as well. I think after all the build-up to #50 and then the non-wedding, his last issue of Batman (85 I think?) will hit us with the opposite: no dress/tux/party buildup and a quick 1 page wedding (perhaps they elope between the pages even). Then, the Bat/Cat book picks up either on their honeymoon or immediately when they get back.

[Restingvoice]

I'm cautious on a wedding actually happening, but at least with the existence of Batman/Catwoman book after, I can rule out death as the big event, thank goodness, because that will be the most boring. A wedding would get the best result since that's what this run's hype has been all about and will at least bring back people who stop reading or wanted to read but cancel it because they cancel the wedding.

[millernumber1]

This seems like it has to be the solution. Because some of that stuff is really lucky guesswork on Bane's part. Like, how did he KNOW that Batman would end up proposing if he and Catwoman were to team up again? He's not monitoring their relationship day to day and they've known each other for years by now. Also he couldn't KNOW that Selina was going to listen to the Joker and Holly to the point where she would for sure leave him. I mean all they had to do was have a talk about this and the whole plan would be blown to hell (like I'm guessing is going to happen now? They reunite, realize they've been manipulated and immediately get back together and take him down?)

It's not exactly the most foolproof plan.

I agree that it's not foolproof, but I think if you factor in "Bane KNOWS Batman and Catwoman psychologically really well" you can handwave it a bit.

As for the Joker and Harley influencing Selina - I've been thinking that since #50's final page, and it made perfect psychological sense to me then.

I think it could’ve worked a bit better if it was presented in a way where Bane’s plan had a starting point (Batman Vol. 1) and an endpoint (City of Bane) but evolved and changed as it went along. Maybe some of his plans work and others don’t. Or some parts work but not in the way he anticipated while other parts backfired and he had to readjust with his new circumstances (such as ending in Arkham). It might’ve felt a bit more natural if it was presented like that instead of every thing we’ve read up to this point being Bane’s will.

I think that could have been a bit better, but I'm okay with the "it was all the master plan" thing. I mean...it's basically what I've been saying for at least 15 issues.

The thing is, not one person ever told Bruce or encouraged or hinted to him that he should marry Selina or that he should get married in general. He apparently kept her stolen diamond from the day he met her, so that was all on him. I don't see how Bane could have KNOWN that that would happen.

And the comments made to Selina by Joker and Holly weren't heavy-handed enough for him to know that's all it would take for her to leave him. For one, it depends on her caring an awful lot about Gotham itself, which I don't see how he could know. And also, if she and Bruce just talked about this even once, they could have dealt with it fairly quickly I bet.

I think he COULD have had a plan to make this happen, but the events that were counted on had to happen in exactly the right way and the actions to prod them weren't very big.

This is a very good point - I don't know about where, exactly, Bane thought that his plan would actually nudge Bruce towards proposing. That is probably the most tenuous point, for me. I know Gotham Girl is part of the plan, but it still feels a bit of a stretch there.

Where do you people think this issue happened? I'm pretty sure the fight ocurred between the events of last issue, just after Bane delivered a punch to Batman and before Alfred helped Bruce getting up

King said on twitter that Bane beating Batman is right after the last issue, but Thomas's dialogue is right after #50.

Haven't read those two series, maybe I should. I do enjoy the different approach King has, and in spite of my confusion over Mr. Miracle's ending I did find it enjoyable.

Plus it still feels like RIP, to me. Not much here is new or unique compared with that, and RIP was a much tighter and well constructed story.

But those negatives aside, this story still may end up being worthwhile depending on how Batman comes out of it.

I do recommend those two series!

As for Bane "winning" - remember what Thomas said in #69: When you think you've won, you'll actually have lost.

It's very much a re-iteration of all of the Batman "death" stories, for me. It's Knightfall, and RIP, and even Endgame (though I think it's actually a rejection of Endgame and Superheavy's foundational thematic points). It's not nearly as tight as RIP, certainly, but I find it a lot less confusing (I've read RIP 3 times, I think, and I still don't really get it.)

Plus, King's Batman is one who I actually love as a main character. Morrison and Snyder's Batmen are just too...distant for me to love. (I also really like Dixon Batman, and see King as something of an heir to his writing, even though he makes several foundational assumptions about Batman that Dixon does not.)

[millernumber1]

Inspired by the new Swamp Thing tv show on DC Universe, I'm rereading one of the best standalone issues in King's run, The Brave and the Mold. With the massive focus on Thomas Wayne right now, do you think that the complicated, deadly relationship Swamp Thing had with his father in that issue was a foreshadowing of what we're seeing with Thomas and Bruce right now?

[Inversed]

Inspired by the new Swamp Thing tv show on DC Universe, I'm rereading one of the best standalone issues in King's run, The Brave and the Mold. With the massive focus on Thomas Wayne right now, do you think that the complicated, deadly relationship Swamp Thing had with his father in that issue was a foreshadowing of what we're seeing with Thomas and Bruce right now?

Considering that issue came literally right after the part of the Button when Thomas returned, I think it was definitely intentional foreshadowing. I remember on my first read of it I was confused about what the overall message by the end of it was, but I think by now I've got good grasp on the intentions.

I also still need to read King & Fabok's Swamp Thing Winter Special which I've heard got nothing but positive responses.

[K. Jones]

So, based on this storyline, and Knightfall, do we have a good grasp of what a "Bane Gambit" now looks like?

[BatmanJones]

Inspired by the new Swamp Thing tv show on DC Universe, I'm rereading one of the best standalone issues in King's run, The Brave and the Mold. With the massive focus on Thomas Wayne right now, do you think that the complicated, deadly relationship Swamp Thing had with his father in that issue was a foreshadowing of what we're seeing with Thomas and Bruce right now?

Thomas Wayne's back, Jor-El's back, and Dr. Manhattan had daddy issues. I hardly think any of that's a coincidence.

[Scott Taylor]

Plus, King's Batman is one who I actually love as a main character. Morrison and Snyder's Batmen are just too...distant for me to love. (I also really like Dixon Batman, and see King as something of an heir to his writing, even though he makes several foundational assumptions about Batman that Dixon does not.)

King's Batman is pretty interesting and a very personal and vulnerable take on the character. It reminds me some of the 1970s work by Englehart. Morrison and Snyder both commonly used Batman more or less as a cog in a great machine, and he was a lot closer to Bat-God than I like. Dixon also has a lot in common with King, I agree.

Amazing how versatile the character can be.

[millernumber1]

King's Batman is pretty interesting and a very personal and vulnerable take on the character. It reminds me some of the 1970s work by Englehart. Morrison and Snyder both commonly used Batman more or less as a cog in a great machine, and he was a lot closer to Bat-God than I like. Dixon also has a lot in common with King, I agree.

Amazing how versatile the character can be.

Yup! And I'm glad there's so many Batmans for many Batman fans to love. I'm just also glad that there's one I can love right now.

[K. Jones]

Thomas Wayne's back, Jor-El's back, and Dr. Manhattan had daddy issues. I hardly think any of that's a coincidence.

Some mathematical equation for "Hopelessness/Loss of Hope" linking to father issues? Or for Johns' initial interpretation of retelling superhero origins requiring every single one of them to have father issues being rooted in his youthful love of Watchmen and its generational "parent issues" in the first place? See also: Justice Society, and everything else.

So Doctor Manhattan is Johns himself?

[Fergus]

The thing is, not one person ever told Bruce or encouraged or hinted to him that he should marry Selina or that he should get married in general. He apparently kept her stolen diamond from the day he met her, so that was all on him. I don't see how Bane could have KNOWN that that would happen.

And the comments made to Selina by Joker and Holly weren't heavy-handed enough for him to know that's all it would take for her to leave him. For one, it depends on her caring an awful lot about Gotham itself, which I don't see how he could know. And also, if she and Bruce just talked about this even once, they could have dealt with it fairly quickly I bet.

I think he COULD have had a plan to make this happen, but the events that were counted on had to happen in exactly the right way and the actions to prod them weren't very big.

Thomas and Gotham Girl did.

[Hilden B. Lade]

King posted a tease for City of Bane: