King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[Yohei72]

(I also love Priest's work on Deathstroke for that reason).

You ain't kidding. I read Deathstroke strictly in TPB because I don't think I could follow the arcs month by month. Even in collected editions it takes some brainwork.

[millernumber1]

You ain't kidding. I read Deathstroke strictly in TPB because I don't think I could follow the arcs month by month. Even in collected editions it takes some brainwork.

I get too impatient - I started buying the trades digitally around #20, but I also collect the individuals. I reread the whole thing probably about every arc - can't wait to do my final series reread in December with #50!

[Yohei72]

I get too impatient - I started buying the trades digitally around #20, but I also collect the individuals. I reread the whole thing probably about every arc - can't wait to do my final series reread in December with #50!

Oh, is it ending with 50? I hadn't heard that. Hm, isn't that around the right time to free up Priest to write another cowled character...?

[millernumber1]

Oh, is it ending with 50? I hadn't heard that. Hm, isn't that around the right time to free up Priest to write another cowled character...?

Haha, if only.

Priest on Batman and King on Batman/Catwoman would be my DREAM.

[K. Jones]

I'm so friggin bummed. I cannot stand JRJr!

I'd prefer more story consistency in the art. I don't mind JRJR but like ... in the thick of an existing storyline? I'm never big on that. I liked Snyder & Romita's Two-Face arc and his depiction of KGBeast, so it's neat to see his take on Bane.

I dunno I'm a weird fan sometimes. I think I'm having deja vu because I was just going to launch into a detailed account of how I'd like King's run a lot better, even with his non sequiturs and lack of desire to explain the mechanics or story logic, the "hows and whys" of how things end up where they end up, just skipping from "AND NOW THIS HAPPENED!" to the next thing without sharing the minutia and the detail-oriented "HOW" that those of us who like a slightly more cerebral, well, DETECTIVE story, tend to like. He definitely goes more for boom big thing with underlying psychological meaning. So I was just noting how I feel like I actually had that complaint at one point about Morrison's run because of some jarring art inclusions, because it was monthly comics and he had the rotating teams. Like how Frazer Irving should have been able to do all of B&R#16 (in spite of my joy that it also introduced Chris Burnham, and you know, always being happy to see Cameron Stewart). Or like when I fantasized about what it would've been like if Philip Tan hadn't been the artist on Revenge of the Red Hood. Or like ... man, the very reason I bought the Absolute Batman Inc - because no fill-in pages, all Burnham!

But yeah - King's run isn't a "devil in the details" run as far as story mechanics and odd little details for how. It's definitely trying to be more about Bruce's inner workings and a big old bad guy plot that plays on those inner workings. And so I think I would like it better if it had art that consistently worked in those parameters. Which was not David Finch. Wasn't Mikel Janin (much though I love him, although his grounded, real human looking characters do come close and I love his Joker.) Not Fabok, not Reis.

...

Honestly the whole run should be Mitch Gerads, but the others who capture the right vibe for King's concepts are definitely Weeks, Fornes and Mann. Like, so many what-ifs. If Mann hadn't done Heroes in Crisis (in that paradise universe!) and could've done more. So on. So forth. But yeah, really, Gerads. Janin should have been with Seeley on Nightwing. I do think an entire look at Batman's whole world of rogues and such through Janin's eye could be cool but again, not sure it fits the tone.

I don't even really like the big splash page guest artist pages in King's landmark issues. I'd rather see like, a Gerads reinterpretation of classic Batman/Catwoman moments in history.

Anyway these are the musings of a madman. I recognize that a lot of King's story structure is set up so that arcs will have plenty of time for his stable of artists to finish their issues, and that it's not even the schedule of a monthly book - it's twice-monthly! And that you don't get Doomsday Clock Gary Frank art out of a bimonthly book.

[lilyrose]

I just watched the Hush movie last night and the Batman/Catwoman romance was heavily focused on, more than I was expecting and more than they did even in the original comic.

I don't know if that has anything to do with the recent heavy focus the current comics were giving to the Batman/Catwoman relationship, but I suspect it probably did. Now that King has brought them back together and they're going to have their own maxi series next year, more Bat/Cat is definitely coming for the next year and a half. And then we don't know for sure, but people are thinking he will probably marry them for real at some point before his run ends.

When all is said and done I think the biggest influence of King's run will end up being the solidifying of the Batman/Catwoman relationship over anything else. And that may extend to depictions of them in other media as well. As more of a couple than just a flirtation.

[millernumber1]

I'd prefer more story consistency in the art. I don't mind JRJR but like ... in the thick of an existing storyline? I'm never big on that. I liked Snyder & Romita's Two-Face arc and his depiction of KGBeast, so it's neat to see his take on Bane.

I dunno I'm a weird fan sometimes. I think I'm having deja vu because I was just going to launch into a detailed account of how I'd like King's run a lot better, even with his non sequiturs and lack of desire to explain the mechanics or story logic, the "hows and whys" of how things end up where they end up, just skipping from "AND NOW THIS HAPPENED!" to the next thing without sharing the minutia and the detail-oriented "HOW" that those of us who like a slightly more cerebral, well, DETECTIVE story, tend to like. He definitely goes more for boom big thing with underlying psychological meaning. So I was just noting how I feel like I actually had that complaint at one point about Morrison's run because of some jarring art inclusions, because it was monthly comics and he had the rotating teams. Like how Frazer Irving should have been able to do all of B&R#16 (in spite of my joy that it also introduced Chris Burnham, and you know, always being happy to see Cameron Stewart). Or like when I fantasized about what it would've been like if Philip Tan hadn't been the artist on Revenge of the Red Hood. Or like ... man, the very reason I bought the Absolute Batman Inc - because no fill-in pages, all Burnham!

But yeah - King's run isn't a "devil in the details" run as far as story mechanics and odd little details for how. It's definitely trying to be more about Bruce's inner workings and a big old bad guy plot that plays on those inner workings. And so I think I would like it better if it had art that consistently worked in those parameters. Which was not David Finch. Wasn't Mikel Janin (much though I love him, although his grounded, real human looking characters do come close and I love his Joker.) Not Fabok, not Reis.

...

Honestly the whole run should be Mitch Gerads, but the others who capture the right vibe for King's concepts are definitely Weeks, Fornes and Mann. Like, so many what-ifs. If Mann hadn't done Heroes in Crisis (in that paradise universe!) and could've done more. So on. So forth. But yeah, really, Gerads. Janin should have been with Seeley on Nightwing. I do think an entire look at Batman's whole world of rogues and such through Janin's eye could be cool but again, not sure it fits the tone.

I don't even really like the big splash page guest artist pages in King's landmark issues. I'd rather see like, a Gerads reinterpretation of classic Batman/Catwoman moments in history.

Anyway these are the musings of a madman. I recognize that a lot of King's story structure is set up so that arcs will have plenty of time for his stable of artists to finish their issues, and that it's not even the schedule of a monthly book - it's twice-monthly! And that you don't get Doomsday Clock Gary Frank art out of a bimonthly book.

Fascinating thoughts! I actually have grown to like some of the artistic choices made with all the different artists. I know Knightmares wasn't very popular, but I adored how it felt like one-shots with connective material, and the Lee Weeks, Jorge Fornes, Travis Moore, Mitch Gerads, Amanda Conner, and Yanick Paquette art was all really, really strong.

I am a big fan of JRJR. He'll feel very jarring in terms of how everything looks, but I think his extreme dynamism will actually really work with the City of Bane concept. Everything will look really fast, bright, and urgent, and that's how I think this arc should look. It doesn't quite complement Tony Daniel, but it fits with the same kind of energy, if that makes sense.

But yes - I agree that it would be nice if we could have gotten King's story with just one or two artists who really complemented each other - but then I also think that I've discovered so many artists or new sides of artists I already knew through this run.

I'm not a Mitch Gerads fan, and especially not in terms of action. I enjoyed his Brave and the Mold and Knightmares issue, but both tended to be more memorable for striking images rather than dynamic action. And I think Batman, even a heavily psychological, emotional run like King's, should have that action punch. (My own preference, of course, would be that Fornes and Weeks draw everything, but not to be... )

I agree on the guest page pinups in #50. Except for the Lee Weeks Bat/Cat page at the end (which is one of the most beautiful pieces I've ever seen), everything just wasn't up to snuff - Gerads, indeed, drew a much worse version of his Rooftops scene, and Finch drew a much worse version of the proposal scene.

I just watched the Hush movie last night and the Batman/Catwoman romance was heavily focused on, more than I was expecting and more than they did even in the original comic.

I don't know if that has anything to do with the recent heavy focus the current comics were giving to the Batman/Catwoman relationship, but I suspect it probably did. Now that King has brought them back together and they're going to have their own maxi series next year, more Bat/Cat is definitely coming for the next year and a half. And then we don't know for sure, but people are thinking he will probably marry them for real at some point before his run ends.

When all is said and done I think the biggest influence of King's run will end up being the solidifying of the Batman/Catwoman relationship over anything else. And that may extend to depictions of them in other media as well. As more of a couple than just a flirtation.

Interesting that Hush featured more Bat/Cat than the original. Did they keep the dreadful ending, though?

A married or even just permanently dating Bat/Cat would be a pretty cool generational change, I think.

[Chubistian]

I really like JR jr when he’s in top of his game. I think his best years are behind him but that he still can make some great looking comics, especially if action is important in the issues he does. I have only flipped through his All Star Batman work and I liked it. I also think he’s doing a good work in Superman Year One. His covers are usually underwhelming, but given time and motivation, he can deliver some good stuff

[Inversed]

I'd prefer more story consistency in the art. I don't mind JRJR but like ... in the thick of an existing storyline? I'm never big on that. I liked Snyder & Romita's Two-Face arc and his depiction of KGBeast, so it's neat to see his take on Bane.

I dunno I'm a weird fan sometimes. I think I'm having deja vu because I was just going to launch into a detailed account of how I'd like King's run a lot better, even with his non sequiturs and lack of desire to explain the mechanics or story logic, the "hows and whys" of how things end up where they end up, just skipping from "AND NOW THIS HAPPENED!" to the next thing without sharing the minutia and the detail-oriented "HOW" that those of us who like a slightly more cerebral, well, DETECTIVE story, tend to like. He definitely goes more for boom big thing with underlying psychological meaning. So I was just noting how I feel like I actually had that complaint at one point about Morrison's run because of some jarring art inclusions, because it was monthly comics and he had the rotating teams. Like how Frazer Irving should have been able to do all of B&R#16 (in spite of my joy that it also introduced Chris Burnham, and you know, always being happy to see Cameron Stewart). Or like when I fantasized about what it would've been like if Philip Tan hadn't been the artist on Revenge of the Red Hood. Or like ... man, the very reason I bought the Absolute Batman Inc - because no fill-in pages, all Burnham!

But yeah - King's run isn't a "devil in the details" run as far as story mechanics and odd little details for how. It's definitely trying to be more about Bruce's inner workings and a big old bad guy plot that plays on those inner workings. And so I think I would like it better if it had art that consistently worked in those parameters. Which was not David Finch. Wasn't Mikel Janin (much though I love him, although his grounded, real human looking characters do come close and I love his Joker.) Not Fabok, not Reis.

...

Honestly the whole run should be Mitch Gerads, but the others who capture the right vibe for King's concepts are definitely Weeks, Fornes and Mann. Like, so many what-ifs. If Mann hadn't done Heroes in Crisis (in that paradise universe!) and could've done more. So on. So forth. But yeah, really, Gerads. Janin should have been with Seeley on Nightwing. I do think an entire look at Batman's whole world of rogues and such through Janin's eye could be cool but again, not sure it fits the tone.

I don't even really like the big splash page guest artist pages in King's landmark issues. I'd rather see like, a Gerads reinterpretation of classic Batman/Catwoman moments in history.

Anyway these are the musings of a madman. I recognize that a lot of King's story structure is set up so that arcs will have plenty of time for his stable of artists to finish their issues, and that it's not even the schedule of a monthly book - it's twice-monthly! And that you don't get Doomsday Clock Gary Frank art out of a bimonthly book.

I can understand your complaints regarding consistency and art. I like when they have multiple artists in a run, especially when you have an amazing lineup of talent like King has, because it gives them a chance to play around in this sandbox and you get to see new interesting interpretations of the storytelling. I was actually a little disappointed at first to find out that all 12 issues of the Batman/Catwoman book were gonna be Mann, not because I think he's bad, but because I love everyone else as well and want to see them get a turn. However I do think with that now that we have Tony Daniel's City Of Bane, where he's only 1 of 5 artists involved, I think more will end up jumping into Bat/Cat at some points.

I do think it is best when there is one artist per arc because it does help to keep some consistency in-between the stories (unless the inconsistency is on purpose, like the Kite Man interlude or Knightmares, etc.)

[Yohei72]

Haha, if only.

Priest on Batman and King on Batman/Catwoman would be my DREAM.

Is there any reason to think it couldn't happen? They haven't announced yet who's taking over the book, the timing seems about right to me, he's clearly a good fit and at least in the CBR community I've seen a fair amount of enthusiasm for the idea. And even Bendis can only write so many books.

[Pohzee]

I'd rather Priest landed in Detective because it's clear Batman post-King is going to be very event heavy. It's partially why they're taking him off the book.

[millernumber1]

Is there any reason to think it couldn't happen? They haven't announced yet who's taking over the book, the timing seems about right to me, he's clearly a good fit and at least in the CBR community I've seen a fair amount of enthusiasm for the idea. And even Bendis can only write so many books.

Priest has admitted that he's not good at playing the office politics that get your choice gigs. He would be great...but he would also be something of a challenging book, and I think DC might be a bit challenge shy after King. But eh. I love King and Priest intensely.

I'd rather Priest landed in Detective because it's clear Batman post-King is going to be very event heavy. It's partially why they're taking him off the book.

I don't really care where Priest lands, as long as he does land with a great book for at least 2 years.

[Yohei72]

Priest has admitted that he's not good at playing the office politics that get your choice gigs.

Heh, I can see it. This hadn't really occurred to me, but after the way he's shot off his mouth lately on #MeToo, DC might be understandably wary.

[Inversed]

For fun, since we've started the final arc, I decided to go in and rank every one of the issues/stories of this run in my own opinion. I ranked them by tiers, so the ordering isn't 100% accurate, but the sections are indicated well enough for me. Very interested what other people's orders are too.

S:
Some Of These Days (Annual #2)
Superfriends: Superman (#36-37)
Batman/Elmer Fudd (Special)
The Ballad Of Kite Man (#27, 30)
Rooftops (#14-15)
Knightmares: Cat (#66)
Your Big Day (DC Nation #0)
Good Boy (Annual #1)
The Button pt. 1 (#21)
The Brave And The Mold (#23)

A:
The War Of Jokes And Riddles (#25-26, 28-29, 31-32)
I Am Suicide (#9-13)
I Am Bane (#16-20)
The Wedding Album (#24, 44, 50)
Batman’s Greatest Case (DC#1000)
The Rules Of Engagement (#33-35)

B:
The Best Man (#48-49)
Cold Days (#51-53)
Knightmares: Constantine, Road Runner, Bachelor, Dance (#63, 67-69)
Superfriends: Wonder Woman (#39-40)
The Better Man (#54)
Everyone Loves Ivy (#41-43)
Beasts Of Burden (#55-57)
The Gift (#45-47)
I Am Gotham (#1-6)
Night Of The Monster Men (#7-8)
The Button pts. 2-4 (#22)

C:
Rebirth (R#1)
The Origin Of Bruce Wayne (#38)
The Tyrant Wing (#58-60)
True Strength (Secret Files #1)
Knightmares: Bruce, Pyg (#61-62)
The Price (#64-65)
The Fall And The Fallen (#70-74)

[millernumber1]

For fun, since we've started the final arc, I decided to go in and rank every one of the issues/stories of this run in my own opinion. I ranked them by tiers, so the ordering isn't 100% accurate, but the sections are indicated well enough for me. Very interested what other people's orders are too.

Great idea! Gonna create my own rating system.

Did Not Enjoy (not bad - none of these comics hit my level of "bad"):
I Am Gotham (#1-6)
The Origin Of Bruce Wayne (#38)
Everyone Loves Ivy (#41-43)
The Gift (#45-47)
Beasts Of Burden (#55-57)
Knightmares: Bruce (#61)
True Strength (Secret Files #1)

Enjoyed, but Frustrated:
Batman/Elmer Fudd (Special)
I Am Suicide (#9-13)
I Am Bane (#16-20)
The Button pt. 1 (#21)
The War Of Jokes And Riddles (#25-26, 28-29, 31)
The Rules Of Engagement (#33-35)
Superfriends: Wonder Woman (#39-40)
The Wedding (#50)
Knightmares: Pyg (#62)

Enjoyed:
Rooftops (#14-15)
The Brave And The Mold (#23)
Every Epilogue is a Prologue (#24)
The Ballad Of Kite Man (#27, 30)
Superfriends: Superman (#36-37)
Your Big Day (DC Nation #0)
The Better Man (#54)
Knightmares: Road Runner (#67)

Loved:
Good Boy (Annual #1)
Bride or Burglar (#44)
The Tyrant Wing (#58-60)
Knightmares: Bachelor (#68)
Knightmares: Dance (#69)
The Fall And The Fallen (#70-74)

Forever Comics:
The War of Jokes and Riddles, Conclusion (#32)
Some Of These Days (Annual #2)
The Best Man (#48-49)
Cold Days (#51-53)
Knightmares: Constantine (#63)
Knightmares: Cat (#66)
Batman’s Greatest Case (DC#1000)

(I'm getting rid of the stuff that's not by King - no Button, no Monster Men, no Price, no Rebirth - I know King co-wrote Rebirth, but I don't really see the connections)