King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[lilyrose]

So Tom King said on a new podcast that the premise of Batman/Catwoman is that Mask of the Phantasm is continuity, that it happened at the beginning of his Batman career, etc.

I'm not totally thrilled about that, because it makes me think a couple things- 1) him being engaged before really lessons the impact of his relationship with Selina now, after everything he built up for them and their history, and 2) this is obviously going to be some kind of threat/romantic rival for Catwoman to deal with, just like Talia was, which seems shallow.

[bob.schoonover]

So Tom King said on a new podcast that the premise of Batman/Catwoman is that Mask of the Phantasm is continuity, that it happened at the beginning of his Batman career, etc.

I'm not totally thrilled about that, because it makes me think a couple things- 1) him being engaged before really lessons the impact of his relationship with Selina now, after everything he built up for them and their history, and 2) this is obviously going to be some kind of threat/romantic rival for Catwoman to deal with, just like Talia was, which seems shallow.

I actually don't think the previous engagement lessens the one to Selina (and let's note, there will have to be differences between MotP and the comic version, so who knows which pieces will maintain). In MotP, Bruce was young, learning to be Batman, and what his vow would mean to him. By the time he proposed to Selina, he was aware of the cost of his mission, what he wanted, why he needed/wanted to marry Selina. It's akin to giving your high school girlfriend a promise ring and then marrying your college girlfriend.

[TheJudge95]

Great idea! Gonna create my own rating system.

Your ranking is very similar to mine. Idk if you have explained this before, but why did you love the Constantine issue of Knightmares so much? I didn't get it.

[dietrich]

I actually don't think the previous engagement lessens the one to Selina (and let's note, there will have to be differences between MotP and the comic version, so who knows which pieces will maintain). In MotP, Bruce was young, learning to be Batman, and what his vow would mean to him. By the time he proposed to Selina, he was aware of the cost of his mission, what he wanted, why he needed/wanted to marry Selina. It's akin to giving your high school girlfriend a promise ring and then marrying your college girlfriend.

Pretty much agree I mean Bruce has proposed to other women before [unless we've got confirmation that all that had been retconed] so this one more makes no difference to him and Selina. Doesn't take away from their feelings. Most adults have loved more than one person + Wasn't he manipulated into proposing to Selina by Bane and his allies?

Ideally I would like him to ask her again once all this with bane is over and there's no one pulling their strings.

[millernumber1]

I actually don't think the previous engagement lessens the one to Selina (and let's note, there will have to be differences between MotP and the comic version, so who knows which pieces will maintain). In MotP, Bruce was young, learning to be Batman, and what his vow would mean to him. By the time he proposed to Selina, he was aware of the cost of his mission, what he wanted, why he needed/wanted to marry Selina. It's akin to giving your high school girlfriend a promise ring and then marrying your college girlfriend.

Agreed. I don't believe in soulmates - I believe in choice and commitment. And I believe that you have opportunities for happiness with many people - but once you make the commitment (not the choice - because things happen, as they did in Mask of the Phantasm to break them apart), you cleave to them and make them your soulmate through your actions every day.

Your ranking is very similar to mine. Idk if you have explained this before, but why did you love the Constantine issue of Knightmares so much? I didn't get it.

The Constantine issue is the honeymoon we should have had. And it was so beautifully drawn. Plus, it plays with one of my favorite questions - we all die. How do we live and find happiness knowing that it will all fall into dust?

Plus, because it was by Mikel Janin, it pretty much perfectly segues into #50, so you can just slot the images into your headcanon for an AU.

Pretty much agree I mean Bruce has proposed to other women before [unless we've got confirmation that all that had been retconed] so this one more makes no difference to him and Selina. Doesn't take away from their feelings. Most adults have loved more than one person + Wasn't he manipulated into proposing to Selina by Bane and his allies?

Ideally I would like him to ask her again once all this with bane is over and there's no one pulling their strings.

Really excellent point. I hope that #85 is that - Batman and Catwoman are free, and one of them proposes - and that launches Bat/Cat.

[Inversed]

Great idea! Gonna create my own rating system.

Really interesting list, I do like looking at all the differences between us and what we liked more than others, like how you put The Tyrant Wing and Fall & The Fallen in your top half, while those are moreso near the bottom for me. Or how I put Batman/Elmer Fudd right at the top while you have on the lower end, etc.

It really shows just how much variety between the storytelling this run has and the differing emotional connections people can have per issue, even when you both love it overall.

As for Mask Of The Phantasm being canon, I don't see any real issues with it, pretty much everything in it is so self contained, and when you have no Robin or anyone else involved, makes it even easier to fit it into the early year of his career.

Plus, I also don't think him proposing to Andrea first takes away from his relationship with Catwoman, because like the run I feel has kind of shown, despite how close of a connection him and Selina had, they pretty much always kept their distance for long periods of time, despite the talk of them being the only ones who really understood them, they never really committed to the idea of the two of them being able to be one. It was a dream they never thought to seek out until now because they didn't know if/when.

Whereas Andrea was someone closer to Bruce from the beginning, and another person Bruce felt the connection to that could understand him, which it turns out she did, just in another extreme. So you can get why and how he would move on after essentially losing her for good by the end of it.

He has also stated that Andrea in this isn't simply just going to be a "scorned lover", so I'm interested to know which direction she's gonna end up taking, and what her real motivation will be.

[TheJudge95]

Ok, after some thought, here's my ranking:

Disliked
War of Jokes and Riddles (#25-26,28-29,31-32)

Did Not Enjoy
I am Gotham (#1-6)
Night of the Monster Men (#7-8)
Rooftops (#14-15)
The Price (#64-65)
Knightmares: Bachelor (#68)

Meh - Leaning Negative
I am Suicide (#9-13)
I am Bane (#16-20)
Superfriends: Wonder Woman (#39-40)
Good Boy (Annual #1)
Bride or Burglar (#44) (This is better with knowledge of the references it makes)
Everyone Loves Ivy pts. 2-3 (#42-43)

Meh - Leaning Positive
Rebirth (R #1)
The Button pts. 2-4 (#22)
Every Epilogue is a Prologue (#24)
Ballad of Kiteman (#27, 30)
Rules of Engagement (#33-35)
Superfriends: Superman (#36-37)
The Origin of Bruce Wayne (#38)
The Gift (#45-47)
The Wedding (#50)
True Strength (Secret Files #1)
Knightmares: Constantine (#63)
Knightmares: Dance (#69)

Enjoyed
Batman/Elmer Fudd (Special)
Some of These Days (Annual #2)
The Button pt. 1 (#21)
The Brave and the Mold (#23)
Everyone Loves Ivy pt. 1 (#41)
The Best Man (#48-49)
The Better Man (#54)
Beasts of Burden (#55-57)
Knightmares: Bruce (#61)
Knightmares: Pyg (#62)
Knightmares: Cat (#66)
Knightmares: Road Runner (#67)
The Fall and the Fallen (#71-74)
City of Bane (#75- )

Loved
Your Big Day (DC Nation #0)
Batman's Greatest Case (DC #1000)
Cold Days (#51-53)
The Tyrant Wing (#58-60)

My list is pretty #50-75 heavy (aka "The Fall"), which is the stretch of the run that has gotten the most criticism. Tom King, if you're reading this, know that #50-75 have fans! I also made a separate category for TWoJaR because it was the lowpoint of the run for me.

[millernumber1]

Really interesting list, I do like looking at all the differences between us and what we liked more than others, like how you put The Tyrant Wing and Fall & The Fallen in your top half, while those are moreso near the bottom for me. Or how I put Batman/Elmer Fudd right at the top while you have on the lower end, etc.

It really shows just how much variety between the storytelling this run has and the differing emotional connections people can have per issue, even when you both love it overall.

As for Mask Of The Phantasm being canon, I don't see any real issues with it, pretty much everything in it is so self contained, and when you have no Robin or anyone else involved, makes it even easier to fit it into the early year of his career.

Plus, I also don't think him proposing to Andrea first takes away from his relationship with Catwoman, because like the run I feel has kind of shown, despite how close of a connection him and Selina had, they pretty much always kept their distance for long periods of time, despite the talk of them being the only ones who really understood them, they never really committed to the idea of the two of them being able to be one. It was a dream they never thought to seek out until now because they didn't know if/when.

Whereas Andrea was someone closer to Bruce from the beginning, and another person Bruce felt the connection to that could understand him, which it turns out she did, just in another extreme. So you can get why and how he would move on after essentially losing her for good by the end of it.

He has also stated that Andrea in this isn't simply just going to be a "scorned lover", so I'm interested to know which direction she's gonna end up taking, and what her real motivation will be.

I like those differences, too! I appreciate you starting off the ranking, and TheJudge for continuing!

And agree with all your points about Mask of the Phantasm. And I want to stress - this isn't because I don't want Bat/Cat to be together (and married!). It's just how I think relationships work.

Ok, after some thought, here's my ranking:

My list is pretty #50-75 heavy (aka "The Fall"), which is the stretch of the run that has gotten the most criticism. Tom King, if you're reading this, know that #50-75 have fans! I also made a separate category for TWoJaR because it was the lowpoint of the run for me.

I love how we all come up with our own ranking systems. Nicely thought out! As a fellow post-50 fan, I agree!

[lilyrose]

I just think making that canon really diminishes Catwoman's importance in his life, which basically undermines King's entire theme.

[millernumber1]

I just think making that canon really diminishes Catwoman's importance in his life, which basically undermines King's entire theme.

How does it diminish her importance, though? We've all stated why we think that it doesn't diminish their relationship.

[Inversed]

I like those differences, too! I appreciate you starting off the ranking, and TheJudge for continuing!

And agree with all your points about Mask of the Phantasm. And I want to stress - this isn't because I don't want Bat/Cat to be together (and married!). It's just how I think relationships work.

It definitely isn't a coincidence in the series where Batman is with his villain turned lover, they face off against his lover turned villain

[millernumber1]

It definitely isn't a coincidence in the series where Batman is with his villain turned lover, they face off against his lover turned villain

Well, even more considering that Mask of the Phantasm explicitly asks the question - can Batman be happy and still be Batman - the central question of King's run.

[Frostbite883]

I think King having Gotham Girl be a Robin to Flashpoint Batman, er, em, Batman to be an unexpected, but interesting twist.

[millernumber1]

We have City of Bane part 2 coming out tomorrow! I'm really excited to see what's going on with Catwoman, of course - but also, King said Tim's going to show up! Hooray!

[BruceWayneJr.]

I was gonna bitch about King cherrypicking BTAS stories (and I guess the Batman Adventures sequels don't count for reasons), but what's the point? The "rules" are out the window.