King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[millernumber1]

I was gonna bitch about King cherrypicking BTAS stories (and I guess the Batman Adventures sequels don't count for reasons), but what's the point? The "rules" are out the window.

Why complain? And what rules would you prefer DC adhere to?

[Noodle]

If I'm remembering it properly (I may not be), Bruce got engaged to Andrea before he became Batman. That was one of the plot points was that he had already started the crime fighting thing, but was pre-Batman, and he was willing to give that up to be with Andrea.

Personally, I feel that it doesn't diminish Bruce's engagement to Selena, but the opposite. By now Bruce has been Batman for years and knows how dangerous the lifestyle is. He knows on any given night he could die, and still inviting someone else into his lifestyle like that takes a huge amount of trust and acceptance from Selena. There was a giant chance she would have said no.

[Inversed]

I was gonna bitch about King cherrypicking BTAS stories (and I guess the Batman Adventures sequels don't count for reasons), but what's the point? The "rules" are out the window.

As far as I can recall, Mask Of The Phantasm is the only BTAS story he's gonna be picking from, besides maybe a reference here and there (which the rest of the DC canon does all the time anyway), and that story is so separated and out of continuity even in its own universe that it could easily fit into main continuity without messing anything up.

If I'm remembering it properly (I may not be), Bruce got engaged to Andrea before he became Batman. That was one of the plot points was that he had already started the crime fighting thing, but was pre-Batman, and he was willing to give that up to be with Andrea.

Personally, I feel that it doesn't diminish Bruce's engagement to Selena, but the opposite. By now Bruce has been Batman for years and knows how dangerous the lifestyle is. He knows on any given night he could die, and still inviting someone else into his lifestyle like that takes a huge amount of trust and acceptance from Selena. There was a giant chance she would have said no.

Yes you're correct, his proposal to Andrea was during his early vigilante pre-Batman days, and was on the verge of giving up. In fact, it was her leaving that directly led to him fully committing to his cause. And like Miller mentioned, that whole movie was about asking the question of "Can Batman be happy?" and dealing directly with what his vows mean to him, exactly what King has been doing this whole run, so it seems fairly certain he's all been building to this since the beginning to come full circle.

Also, no matter which way you look at the "broken continuity" these events would have taken place all before Bruce and Selina met each other (boat or street) so it would fit in that instance too.

[Vordan]

I was gonna bitch about King cherrypicking BTAS stories (and I guess the Batman Adventures sequels don't count for reasons), but what's the point? The "rules" are out the window.

Lmao when did the “rules” ever matter? Morrison was cherry picking from Pre-Crisis, and Harley Quinn was already brought over from the DCAU.

[BatmanJones]

Such a great issue and they're only going to get more exciting from here on out. I haven't been so excited by a new Batman villain since Ra's al Ghul first appeared in the 1970s. I don't expect him to survive this run but I sure hope I'm wrong about that.

And Tony Daniel is really outdoing himself. I thought his work on #75 was pretty great but his art in this issue was extraordinary.

[lilyrose]

Selina looked gorgeous in this issue. Can't wait to see them actually talk to each other again.

[gambit2051]

I'm sick and tired of this retread over a Chuck Dixon story...this is a run in which it has just been 1 long re-telling of Chuck Dixon's introduction of Bane and breaking of Bruce's back, with his father playing Azrael and being evil instantly rather than being torn down by his own demons slowly, he instantly believes beating his son will stop him...because Bruce always just lays down....then you have Gotham Girl being amped up and yet still not dying even though that has been the Damocles Sword over her head for HOW LONG?????

I'm done with Batman, or any non-mini-series, written by King. None of this is original and you must have such a suspension of disbelief to a point even further than we already go reading stories about aliens from space who look human and have super powers. King knows what he is asking, and issue 76 is obviously his bs attempt to prove that his story absolutely would happen just like Cataclysm...yet proving yet again HOW UNORIGINAL AND BORING THIS HAS ALL BEEN!!!! Bane HAS BARELY BEEN IN THE BOOK, and his team holds NOTHING to the Black Glove from Morrison's run that King is attempting to create in a larger sense because he used established villains and that makes it better...........King has ruined pretty much any hero he has touched (minus the incredible Miracle Man) in the past 2 years (He damaged Wally West so badly that honestly the entirety of Heroes in Crisis needs to just be erased it was so poorly handled and showed that King does NO RESEARCH about the characters past what he wants from it, or would you like to explain why the Speed Force lightning is suddenly a PHYSICAL IMPALING FORCE and no longer electricity, because King had the lightning skewer the heroes around Wally like the lighting was made out of Swords.........)

I, like SOOOOO many others who enjoyed Kings run at the start, are sooooooooo ready for him to be done with his stealing from Dixon and Morrison. Especially since those are the 2 most prolific Batman writers of the past 20-25 years outside Snyder, so taking from either is literally retreading over RECENT STORIES.

[Korath]

I'm sick and tired of this retread over a Chuck Dixon story...this is a run in which it has just been 1 long re-telling of Chuck Dixon's introduction of Bane and breaking of Bruce's back, with his father playing Azrael and being evil instantly rather than being torn down by his own demons slowly, he instantly believes beating his son will stop him...because Bruce always just lays down....then you have Gotham Girl being amped up and yet still not dying even though that has been the Damocles Sword over her head for HOW LONG?????

I'm done with Batman, or any non-mini-series, written by King. None of this is original and you must have such a suspension of disbelief to a point even further than we already go reading stories about aliens from space who look human and have super powers. King knows what he is asking, and issue 76 is obviously his bs attempt to prove that his story absolutely would happen just like Cataclysm...yet proving yet again HOW UNORIGINAL AND BORING THIS HAS ALL BEEN!!!! Bane HAS BARELY BEEN IN THE BOOK, and his team holds NOTHING to the Black Glove from Morrison's run that King is attempting to create in a larger sense because he used established villains and that makes it better...........King has ruined pretty much any hero he has touched (minus the incredible Miracle Man) in the past 2 years (He damaged Wally West so badly that honestly the entirety of Heroes in Crisis needs to just be erased it was so poorly handled and showed that King does NO RESEARCH about the characters past what he wants from it, or would you like to explain why the Speed Force lightning is suddenly a PHYSICAL IMPALING FORCE and no longer electricity, because King had the lightning skewer the heroes around Wally like the lighting was made out of Swords.........)

I, like SOOOOO many others who enjoyed Kings run at the start, are sooooooooo ready for him to be done with his stealing from Dixon and Morrison. Especially since those are the 2 most prolific Batman writers of the past 20-25 years outside Snyder, so taking from either is literally retreading over RECENT STORIES.

I feel you, but that's the appreciation thread for King.

I've done it sometimes, so I'm not the best placed, but, frankly, it's not cool to come here just to rant. I'll create a thread for issue 76 so you can post here

In fact I did just that ^^.

[gambit2051]

I feel you, but that's the appreciation thread for King.

I've done it sometimes, so I'm not the best placed, but, frankly, it's not cool to come here just to rant. I'll create a thread for issue 76 so you can post here

In fact I did just that ^^.

Thanks! Only reason i went here was I didn't see a thread for Issue 76 yet and this was the next closest thread.

[Katana500]

I really loved today's issue.

I wonder how the next few issues will go!

If I had to guess Catwoman and Batman will rally the family in the next few issues and launch an assault directly on Bane's city.

I guess someone will snap Claire out of whatever mind control she is in - issue 5 said she would kill Batman - but what if the Batman she kills is Thomas Wayne!

[Korath]

I really loved today's issue.

I wonder how the next few issues will go!

If I had to guess Catwoman and Batman will rally the family in the next few issues and launch an assault directly on Bane's city.

I guess someone will snap Claire out of whatever mind control she is in - issue 5 said she would kill Batman - but what if the Batman she kills is Thomas Wayne!

If she is truly mind-controlled (which hasn't really been established so far) I think it'll be Duke, per what we learned in issue 5 of this run. And I'm not sure how I feel about it at all.

it would make sense, since he is the only Batfam member she interacted with who seemed to genuinely care for her, even at her lowest. I discount her appearance in the BoP series because it didn't happen in the page of King's Batman and he doesn't seem to reference anything happening outside of his run.

[Katana500]

I wonder if her and Duke getting married will be part of King's run or a subplot in Batman/Catwoman or something.

I doubt he will just drop that plot thread. Although we havent really seen them interact much since their first meeting.

[K. Jones]

I'm sick and tired of this retread over a Chuck Dixon story...this is a run in which it has just been 1 long re-telling of Chuck Dixon's introduction of Bane and breaking of Bruce's back, with his father playing Azrael and being evil instantly rather than being torn down by his own demons slowly, he instantly believes beating his son will stop him...because Bruce always just lays down....then you have Gotham Girl being amped up and yet still not dying even though that has been the Damocles Sword over her head for HOW LONG?????

I'm done with Batman, or any non-mini-series, written by King. None of this is original and you must have such a suspension of disbelief to a point even further than we already go reading stories about aliens from space who look human and have super powers. King knows what he is asking, and issue 76 is obviously his bs attempt to prove that his story absolutely would happen just like Cataclysm...yet proving yet again HOW UNORIGINAL AND BORING THIS HAS ALL BEEN!!!! Bane HAS BARELY BEEN IN THE BOOK, and his team holds NOTHING to the Black Glove from Morrison's run that King is attempting to create in a larger sense because he used established villains and that makes it better...........King has ruined pretty much any hero he has touched (minus the incredible Miracle Man) in the past 2 years (He damaged Wally West so badly that honestly the entirety of Heroes in Crisis needs to just be erased it was so poorly handled and showed that King does NO RESEARCH about the characters past what he wants from it, or would you like to explain why the Speed Force lightning is suddenly a PHYSICAL IMPALING FORCE and no longer electricity, because King had the lightning skewer the heroes around Wally like the lighting was made out of Swords.........)

I, like SOOOOO many others who enjoyed Kings run at the start, are sooooooooo ready for him to be done with his stealing from Dixon and Morrison. Especially since those are the 2 most prolific Batman writers of the past 20-25 years outside Snyder, so taking from either is literally retreading over RECENT STORIES.

I will say, that when this was done ... oh, like three years ago during Forever Evil, you know, big JLA/Legion of Doom/Secret Society sponsorship allows the villains to take over Gotham and Bane plans to rise to the top ... as bad as "Arkham War" was, because it was just six issues of punching and a seventh issue for kicks ... the pure premise of Bane adopting the bat-symbol and being Bat-Bane for a split second with the Talon as his Robin was kind of ... perversely enjoyable.

Flashpoint Batman and Gotham Girl is also "neat" but definitely not exactly groundbreaking. But, and I'm actually going to give King his due here because I have mixed emotions about this run and went from loving a lot of it, or finding it to balance itself out every few issues, to mostly reading trying to analyze decisions and figure out what the hell he's trying to accomplish ... I think the "Retread" aspect of it is entirely on purpose. I mean it's too on the nose not to be overtly obvious that this is a Highlight Reel of previous Bane-type stories, the same way Death of the Family was just a highlight reel of superior Joker stories of the past. But I wrote a huge essay about how Snyder was definitely doing that on purpose, whether I liked the story or not, and that there's a built-in incidental thesis statement because of it.

And I believe that's the case here, too. There's a statement buried in this thing. Probably not even the statement King intended to make. And I'm kind of excited as an analyst to glean it. But I need more context.

[bob.schoonover]

Definitely agree about the retread aspect being purposeful - both from King's own run and from previous ones. From King's own run (just very recent examples among dozens) the Damian/Tim talk was similar to the Damian/Dick one in Rules of Engagement - Damian starts blustery and uncaring, then loses his bluster to his predecessor and states his true feelings/concerns; Batman and Batdad's trek through the desert was much like the Bat/Cat one before it. From other runs, Luthor and Bane negotiating the closing of Gotham echoes a bit the tail end of NML; Gotham Girl's talk about being broody or not reminds me a bit of Carrie Kelly in DKSA (she's also the primary Bat-agent patrolling Gotham when that story begins); Bruce climbing a mountain to attain spiritual guidance happened in 52, etc. Heck, Thomas's entire thesis - the one Bruce refutes in the Nain Pit - was part of the Lump's attempt to control Batman during Last Rites.

Granted, with a few thousand Batman stories around, it's hard not to accidentally reference any of them, anyway, but it sure seems like King is doing a lot of this with intention.

[millernumber1]

If I'm remembering it properly (I may not be), Bruce got engaged to Andrea before he became Batman. That was one of the plot points was that he had already started the crime fighting thing, but was pre-Batman, and he was willing to give that up to be with Andrea.

Personally, I feel that it doesn't diminish Bruce's engagement to Selena, but the opposite. By now Bruce has been Batman for years and knows how dangerous the lifestyle is. He knows on any given night he could die, and still inviting someone else into his lifestyle like that takes a huge amount of trust and acceptance from Selena. There was a giant chance she would have said no.

Completely agree - I think Selina truly knows Bruce and Batman - Andrea only knew the side of Bruce he let her see.

Also, no matter which way you look at the "broken continuity" these events would have taken place all before Bruce and Selina met each other (boat or street) so it would fit in that instance too.

I don't know for sure, but I would personally put Mask of the Phantasm right after Year One. King said on Word Balloon that you have to fudge the Joker's part of Mask of the Phantasm, because DC refuses to be specific on that, but if you have the Joker involved at all, that means it has to be after Year One, because the end of Year One is the first mention of the Joker in current timeline (as far as I can tell - of course, if you accept Zero Year as still canon, which MAY be the case given the solicits for War of Jokes and Riddles - though I don't think it has to be at all - then Joker's background is even more hard to piece together.)

Such a great issue and they're only going to get more exciting from here on out. I haven't been so excited by a new Batman villain since Ra's al Ghul first appeared in the 1970s. I don't expect him to survive this run but I sure hope I'm wrong about that.

And Tony Daniel is really outdoing himself. I thought his work on #75 was pretty great but his art in this issue was extraordinary.

Which villain - Flashpoint Batman?

Daniel and King did some really amazing storytelling here - from the Atom/Gotham Girl fight, to Tim's reveal in the hospital - it was just a series of WHAM moments for me!

Selina looked gorgeous in this issue. Can't wait to see them actually talk to each other again.

Agreed! I hope Bruce wakes up next issue!

I feel you, but that's the appreciation thread for King.

I've done it sometimes, so I'm not the best placed, but, frankly, it's not cool to come here just to rant. I'll create a thread for issue 76 so you can post here

In fact I did just that ^^.

Thanks, Korath - really appreciate that.

Thanks! Only reason i went here was I didn't see a thread for Issue 76 yet and this was the next closest thread.

Remember, you can always start your own thread! It's not limited to mods or longtime posters!

I really loved today's issue.

I wonder how the next few issues will go!

If I had to guess Catwoman and Batman will rally the family in the next few issues and launch an assault directly on Bane's city.

I guess someone will snap Claire out of whatever mind control she is in - issue 5 said she would kill Batman - but what if the Batman she kills is Thomas Wayne!

I hadn't thought of That! I could really see Claire turning on Thomas if she snaps out of Psycho Pirate's control.

If she is truly mind-controlled (which hasn't really been established so far) I think it'll be Duke, per what we learned in issue 5 of this run. And I'm not sure how I feel about it at all.

it would make sense, since he is the only Batfam member she interacted with who seemed to genuinely care for her, even at her lowest. I discount her appearance in the BoP series because it didn't happen in the page of King's Batman and he doesn't seem to reference anything happening outside of his run.

I think Duke should come back. He had a pretty cool part of the first three arcs, and it would be nice to see him again.

Definitely agree about the retread aspect being purposeful - both from King's own run and from previous ones. From King's own run (just very recent examples among dozens) the Damian/Tim talk was similar to the Damian/Dick one in Rules of Engagement - Damian starts blustery and uncaring, then loses his bluster to his predecessor and states his true feelings/concerns; Batman and Batdad's trek through the desert was much like the Bat/Cat one before it. From other runs, Luthor and Bane negotiating the closing of Gotham echoes a bit the tail end of NML; Gotham Girl's talk about being broody or not reminds me a bit of Carrie Kelly in DKSA (she's also the primary Bat-agent patrolling Gotham when that story begins); Bruce climbing a mountain to attain spiritual guidance happened in 52, etc. Heck, Thomas's entire thesis - the one Bruce refutes in the Nain Pit - was part of the Lump's attempt to control Batman during Last Rites.

Granted, with a few thousand Batman stories around, it's hard not to accidentally reference any of them, anyway, but it sure seems like King is doing a lot of this with intention.

Awesome highlighting of parallels! Given how much time King has spent deliberately layering in parallels, I doubt that these Robin interactions are anything but purposeful! The buildup to Tim's reveal, and then his conversation with Damian, were my favorite part of this issue - and that's in an issue where Selina has her amazing monologue to Bruce!