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  1. #106
    A Gentle Woman Mia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    As OP, I tried to make it as clear as possible with ENJOYMENT is in the title that at least SOME element of enjoyment should be the guiding principle. If you want a King hate thread, there are plenty (the King vs. Snyder thread, for one). There's a clear difference between "you don't have to ONLY enjoy" and "sure, come in and hate on King." You highlight the "not wholly appreciative" but completely ignore "isn't just a bunch of I hate this" section.

    Obviously, this isn't an appreciation thread, so we're not saying "Only blind love of King is allowed" - far from it. I've posted about some of my particular problems with the first arc, and as I move through my reread, I'll post more. But I'm just really puzzled at what you hoped to achieve, saying "Honestly don't understand how you people can enjoy this" - not only is it completely lacking in any enjoyment, but it's also treating people who do enjoy it as "you people."
    I outlined that I picked up the trade after a long absence from Batman and my reasons for it. I explained why I did not enjoy the book. As I (and others) have done with other books, films etc. when posting on a forum. Normally the response from other posters is to a)ask for further clarification or b) explain what they enjoyed about the book/film/story etc.

    You claim that this is not about a universal love for King’s work . But your reaction in choosing to chastise me and propensity to take offense shows the exact opposite is the case.

    I’ll send the mod a request to change the name of the thread "To appreciation" and update my settings.
    Last edited by Mia; 06-20-2018 at 06:30 PM.
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  2. #107
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Sorry to all - should have followed my own policy and let the thread pass around the issue, instead of engaging.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
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  3. #108
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    Haven't gone and read through this entire thread yet but just wanted to give a shout out for it's creation. I've been seeing so many online commenters totally missing what King has been doing — literally just not getting it and not realizing that they aren't getting it — and glad to find a harbor on CBR to get into it. For me, I find his thoughtful literary approach to storytelling refreshing and intoxicating, especially here, on 'Batman,' finding new vibrant life in decades-old revised-and-revised legacy characters in a wacky fictional world of capes and death and resurrection and repetition. It all fits perfectly with the story he's telling about humanity. Morrison was similar in some ways, but took it in a completely different direction, but with Snyder, it really seemed like there was nothing left to Batman but to repeat old stories with more gore and needless narration boxes. Snyder's New 52 run, from the beginning, was just the Mountain Dew version of the old DCU but more eXXXtreme, and with Greg Capullo's perfect art. 'Batman' has had nothing but great artists in recent years, that's for sure.

    I love that King mostly refrains from narration boxes and instead lets the reader intuit the characters' minds from their actions, behaviors, words. For Batman himself, I find it to be very refreshing, as I think a slightly more mysterious approach to him is the better, more interesting way. At the same time, the man underneath the superhero, has rarely felt more like a real person than in King's run.

    For the most recent issue — I thought this issue turned "The Best Man" arc into a redemption after King lost his way a bit with the Booster Gold storyline which was, to me, one of the few times where I felt King wrote as sloppily as his most vocal critics say he does. With the twice-monthly release schedule, I guess that is bound to happen, although I think the run has been incredibly strong overall.

    Here's my quick reviews of King's run, by trade rather than individual arc. I Am Suicide TPB contains Swamp Thing, I Am Bane contains Rooftops, etc.

    I Am Gotham - B-
    I Am Suicide - A+
    I Am Bane - A+
    The War of Jokes and Riddles - A+
    Rules of Engagement (including Superfriends) - A+

    And for what's not yet in trade:

    Wonder Woman & Gentle Man — B
    Origin of Bruce Wayne one-off — B+
    Everyone Loves Ivy — B+
    Bride or Burglar? one-off — A
    Booster Gold arc — C
    The Best Man — A

    The Button - C+
    Monster Men - C
    Prelude to the Wedding (I know this is Seeley but its been positioned as part of the arc) - C+

    And also this is happening concurrently with Mister Miracle which is also A-level.

    Excited to see what happens in 50. We still don't have a clear sense of Selina's inner-life or her thoughts, and although I think King writes a great Selina, he does have the problem overall of not giving more depth to the female protagonist POV. It's there in Mister Miracle, too, in which Barda, like Catwoman, is often there to fix the male protagonist. Both could be seen as versions of "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" if you look at it. Now, in his defense, both Scott Free and Bruce Wayne are the eponymous stars of their books, so of course it is more from their POV. But even when we do get to spend one-on-one time with Selina, in 'Bride or Burglar' or in #49 with Joker, she is still talking about how she exists only in relation to Batman. In fact, I don't think King's run would've passed the Bechdel test until the Ivy arc, right?

    I think her laughing at the end is realizing that Joker won, on some level. He cast doubt on whether Batman can be happy and Batman at the same time. On the other hand, I don't think that's right, or that Selina thinks that. At the end of Jokes & Riddles she tosses a similar notion aside -- the idea that Bruce has to be some fictional version of himself, either in his mind or in others. Bruce is not a perfect caped crusader, he has faults; he is not Batman only to serve the Joker's masochistic desires. He isn't anything except himself. He's just a person - "the man I stupidly fell in love with" to paraphrase her in the Talia sword fight. lol.

    Anyway.

    My prediction is that the wedding happens. Batman and Catwoman exchange vows in a non-traditional way. Batman has taken vows for avenging the dead before, notably his parents, but he has never taken a vow for the living -- for the people in front of him. I think he will do that.

    But I think they will immediately 'separate' and return to a status quo of working separately. They will not be a traditional marriage. Bat/Cat will still maintain their independence. But their vow to each other will still be there.
    Last edited by gregpersons; 06-21-2018 at 12:10 AM.

  4. #109
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    I'm totally LOVING Tom King. I've been so sick of Batgod for ages; Bruce has NEEDED to be humanized for decades. Long live King Tom King!

  5. #110
    Fantastic Member chipsnopotatoes's Avatar
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    I love this Joker arc 48/49. It’s right up there for me along with Batman Annual and the Double Date issues

    I know a lot of people were upset that Batman didn’t do more to stop the Joker and even kneeled down to pray with him, but I think it’s a really interesting scene. It shows a lack of cynicism in King’s Batman, this willingness to save even the evil and unsaveable.

    And 49 is just on another level. Art, story and dialogue were just so good
    - the fight scene was really fluid and graceful
    - the banter between Catwoman and Joker while both bleeding
    - Selina telling the OK joke to let the Joker know she understands his point that Batman can’t be Batman and be happy
    - the last page where she sees for herself how the Joker was right — that being happy has made Batman vulnerable and that he has to stop being Batman.

    I don’t recall if Bruce ever told her why he proposed — that his father told him to stop being Batman and that he wants to. But it seems to me she’s come to that realization in this issue. From Batman 44, we can tell she’s not ready to stop being Catwoman. I wonder if this will be the reason they part ways in 50 (either before or after the wedding) and transition to her solo
    Last edited by chipsnopotatoes; 06-21-2018 at 03:46 AM.

  6. #111
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Haven't gone and read through this entire thread yet but just wanted to give a shout out for it's creation. I've been seeing so many online commenters totally missing what King has been doing — literally just not getting it and not realizing that they aren't getting it — and glad to find a harbor on CBR to get into it. For me, I find his thoughtful literary approach to storytelling refreshing and intoxicating, especially here, on 'Batman,' finding new vibrant life in decades-old revised-and-revised legacy characters in a wacky fictional world of capes and death and resurrection and repetition. It all fits perfectly with the story he's telling about humanity. Morrison was similar in some ways, but took it in a completely different direction, but with Snyder, it really seemed like there was nothing left to Batman but to repeat old stories with more gore and needless narration boxes. Snyder's New 52 run, from the beginning, was just the Mountain Dew version of the old DCU but more eXXXtreme, and with Greg Capullo's perfect art. 'Batman' has had nothing but great artists in recent years, that's for sure.

    I love that King mostly refrains from narration boxes and instead lets the reader intuit the characters' minds from their actions, behaviors, words. For Batman himself, I find it to be very refreshing, as I think a slightly more mysterious approach to him is the better, more interesting way. At the same time, the man underneath the superhero, has rarely felt more like a real person than in King's run.

    For the most recent issue — I thought this issue turned "The Best Man" arc into a redemption after King lost his way a bit with the Booster Gold storyline which was, to me, one of the few times where I felt King wrote as sloppily as his most vocal critics say he does. With the twice-monthly release schedule, I guess that is bound to happen, although I think the run has been incredibly strong overall.

    Here's my quick reviews of King's run, by trade rather than individual arc. I Am Suicide TPB contains Swamp Thing, I Am Bane contains Rooftops, etc.

    I Am Gotham - B-
    I Am Suicide - A+
    I Am Bane - A+
    The War of Jokes and Riddles - A+
    Rules of Engagement (including Superfriends) - A+

    And for what's not yet in trade:

    Wonder Woman & Gentle Man — B
    Origin of Bruce Wayne one-off — B+
    Everyone Loves Ivy — B+
    Bride or Burglar? one-off — A
    Booster Gold arc — C
    The Best Man — A

    The Button - C+
    Monster Men - C
    Prelude to the Wedding (I know this is Seeley but its been positioned as part of the arc) - C+

    And also this is happening concurrently with Mister Miracle which is also A-level.

    Excited to see what happens in 50. We still don't have a clear sense of Selina's inner-life or her thoughts, and although I think King writes a great Selina, he does have the problem overall of not giving more depth to the female protagonist POV. It's there in Mister Miracle, too, in which Barda, like Catwoman, is often there to fix the male protagonist. Both could be seen as versions of "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" if you look at it. Now, in his defense, both Scott Free and Bruce Wayne are the eponymous stars of their books, so of course it is more from their POV. But even when we do get to spend one-on-one time with Selina, in 'Bride or Burglar' or in #49 with Joker, she is still talking about how she exists only in relation to Batman. In fact, I don't think King's run would've passed the Bechdel test until the Ivy arc, right?

    I think her laughing at the end is realizing that Joker won, on some level. He cast doubt on whether Batman can be happy and Batman at the same time. On the other hand, I don't think that's right, or that Selina thinks that. At the end of Jokes & Riddles she tosses a similar notion aside -- the idea that Bruce has to be some fictional version of himself, either in his mind or in others. Bruce is not a perfect caped crusader, he has faults; he is not Batman only to serve the Joker's masochistic desires. He isn't anything except himself. He's just a person - "the man I stupidly fell in love with" to paraphrase her in the Talia sword fight. lol.

    Anyway.

    My prediction is that the wedding happens. Batman and Catwoman exchange vows in a non-traditional way. Batman has taken vows for avenging the dead before, notably his parents, but he has never taken a vow for the living -- for the people in front of him. I think he will do that.

    But I think they will immediately 'separate' and return to a status quo of working separately. They will not be a traditional marriage. Bat/Cat will still maintain their independence. But their vow to each other will still be there.
    Wow - those are some awesome thoughts! Welcome to the conversation!

    King's a very, very spare writer with both dialogue and narration boxes - though sometimes he lets his speechifying fly, as with the Joker's monologue last issue. I think it sometimes can be difficult as a reader, not to know what Batman's thinking, but in general, I think it invites meditation and thought, even as we're also caught up in action. And I completely agree that Batman does feel like a real person with real desires in this run.

    For me, the verdict is still out on The Gift, because I feel like King has to have some reason for including this story, other than just setting up Booster being at Sanctuary. I'm hoping that King has some kind of place for that story structurally that's not apparent yet. But by itself, I didn't really enjoy it.

    I liked #49 largely because we finally get to see Selina's inner thoughts. I think it's fair that in a comic called "Batman" his love interest is a supporting character, just as Alfred, Gordon, the Robins, etc are. But she is supposed to be at least partly a co-protagonist, so it's good to have some more internality for her.

    I think there are three things in her laugh at the end - Selina laughs when she wins, she laughs bitterly because the Joker wins, and she might be poisoned by the Joker's toxin. I don't know if all three are active, but until we get to #50, we won't know for sure, and I appreciate the painful tension in not knowing.

    I like your solution to the wedding thing! BatCat is never going to be white pickett fence - even in the Annual future, we don't really see that they're traditional - but I do think they will commit to each other. We shall see if our optimism wins out! Whatever happens, I hope it's not as poorly thought through as X-Men Gold's "solution" to that wedding... though I hear "Injustice 2" is supposed to have a wedding that's even better

    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    I'm totally LOVING Tom King. I've been so sick of Batgod for ages; Bruce has NEEDED to be humanized for decades. Long live King Tom King!
    Welcome! I'm really enjoying him, too!

    Quote Originally Posted by chipsnopotatoes View Post
    I love this Joker arc 48/49. It’s right up there for me along with Batman Annual and the Double Date issues

    I know a lot of people were upset that Batman didn’t do more to stop the Joker and even kneeled down to pray with him, but I think it’s a really interesting scene. It shows a lack of cynicism in King’s Batman, this willingness to save even the evil and unsaveable.

    And 49 is just on another level. Art, story and dialogue were just so good
    - the fight scene was really fluid and graceful
    - the banter between Catwoman and Joker while both bleeding
    - Selina telling the OK joke to let the Joker know she understands his point that Batman can’t be Batman and be happy
    - the last page where she sees for herself how the Joker was right — that being happy has made Batman vulnerable and that he has to stop being Batman.

    I don’t recall if Bruce ever told her why he proposed — that his father told him to stop being Batman and that he wants to. But it seems to me she’s come to that realization in this issue. From Batman 44, we can tell she’s not ready to stop being Catwoman. I wonder if this will be the reason they part ways in 50 (either before or after the wedding) and transition to her solo
    Interesting! To me, it's really going to depend on how #50 turns out, but I think this is the kind of carefully crafted, slow paced, deliberate and devastating King stuff that I loved in Vision and Omega Men. I found the prayer scene to be terrifying and moving - I always thought that Batman was just trying to find an opening, but couldn't because of the Joker's unpredictability.

    We'll have to see if Selina agrees with Joker - I personally don't, maybe because I'm a sap, but I want to think that Batman doesn't have to be alone and miserable to be Batman.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  7. #112
    Incredible Member bobellis75's Avatar
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    I am behind on reading...so I'm avoiding spoilers but just wanted to say that I'm really digging King's run so far...I'm going to try and get current this weekend (I just finished the arc where they go see Talia, and finally read Annual 2 as well). So I'm about 10-12 issues behind....that Annual deserved all the accolades it received, and I'm glad I finally got around to it.

  8. #113
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobellis75 View Post
    I am behind on reading...so I'm avoiding spoilers but just wanted to say that I'm really digging King's run so far...I'm going to try and get current this weekend (I just finished the arc where they go see Talia, and finally read Annual 2 as well). So I'm about 10-12 issues behind....that Annual deserved all the accolades it received, and I'm glad I finally got around to it.
    Welcome! You have some really great issues ahead of you!

    I can't wait to get to my reread of the Annual - it's such a powerful piece!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  9. #114
    Incredible Member bobellis75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Welcome! You have some really great issues ahead of you!

    I can't wait to get to my reread of the Annual - it's such a powerful piece!
    I read it twice in a row....it was truly great.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Wow - those are some awesome thoughts! Welcome to the conversation!
    ...
    I think there are three things in her laugh at the end - Selina laughs when she wins, she laughs bitterly because the Joker wins, and she might be poisoned by the Joker's toxin. I don't know if all three are active, but until we get to #50, we won't know for sure, and I appreciate the painful tension in not knowing.
    Thanks! And I think you're right about Selina laughing, except that I don't think there was a Joker toxin. Batman talking about the toxin at the end isn't reliable — we know that wasn't what happened. The Joker had a gun and a bomb, that was it. So I don't think Selina was poisoned with anything other than a gun shot to the stomach.

    The other thing is that Selina laughing is something Joker can't understand, which he mentions repeatedly -- she tells him she only laughs when she wins. And when Joker's gambit at the end, to 'save Batman', fails, she has won. She is the one who 'got' Batman. The Joker and the other villains thought the only way to 'get' Batman was to kill, capture, or deliver him more misery, as a form of love, but Catwoman isn't like them. Like she says in War of Jokes and Riddles, she's not a criminal like they are. They're unsuccessful. So for all of the rogues trying to 'get' Batman over the years, only Catwoman, with her particular set of skills, was able to 'get' him successfully.

    In a sense, The Joker won also -- he got EXACTLY what he came for, despite Batman saying the Joker didn't get what he wanted. Joker wanted to see Bat & Cat and be involved in their wedding. If you think about it, The Joker essentially 'married' them in that church -- by his own logic, the only way to prevent the marriage was either to kill everyone on earth, or kill Selina. Since he failed and 'died', then they're free to marry with his 'blessing.' Selina realizes that, and finds it darkly humorous.

    I don't think much, if any, of any lingering plot threads from 48/49 will carry into 50. I think it will be pretty standalone.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Interesting! To me, it's really going to depend on how #50 turns out, but I think this is the kind of carefully crafted, slow paced, deliberate and devastating King stuff that I loved in Vision and Omega Men. I found the prayer scene to be terrifying and moving - I always thought that Batman was just trying to find an opening, but couldn't because of the Joker's unpredictability.
    Re: the prayer scene —

    That's part of it, Batman looking for an opening.

    But also, the prayer that Joker says (paraphrasing but its something like 'my mom got shot, but i did not, i'm alive, i hope i dont get shot') is something that also defines Batman's POV. It's Joker showing us that he 'understands' Batman -- and he does understand him, in his own specific way.

    And it's because of Batman's predictability that Joker is able to manipulate him throughout.

    It's not dissimilar from Joker making Batman do any other number of things to 'stop him', like running through a carnival haunted house in Killing Joke.

  12. #117
    Incredible Member bobellis75's Avatar
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    by the way...where does the DC Nation story fit in? I know there is a Batman story in it with Joker....I have the issue...not sure where I should read the story to keep everything chronological as I catch up

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobellis75 View Post
    by the way...where does the DC Nation story fit in? I know there is a Batman story in it with Joker....I have the issue...not sure where I should read the story to keep everything chronological as I catch up
    It fits anywhere after the proposal and before #48.

  14. #119
    Incredible Member bobellis75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    It fits anywhere after the proposal and before #48.
    Got it...thanks.

  15. #120
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I will leave my thoughts of every arc, just for fun hahaha

    I Am Gotham - Rebirth + 1-6: Not the best of begginings, but it does gain points for introducing concepts that would end up becoming important pillars in the overall run

    Night of the Monster Men: I don't count it as part of King's run, since it was mostly Orlando's work. I can't say I'm a fan of the concept nor the execution, though it could've been much worse

    I Am Suicide - 9-13: It was the arc that finally made me interested in King's run. I love the concepts it plays with and how it does it, but some things could've been work out better

    Annual #1 - Good Boy: A fun little story. I liked it and as feels pretty unique as a Batman story.

    Rooftops - 14-15: The first time we see King really playing with old continuity for real. Building a love story in years of history and stories between two characters instead of just doing it with recent material was a great decission

    I Am Bane - 16-20: I love Bane, so seeing a writer treating him as King did is always welcome. I like the Bat burger joint and how you could feel the fear and danger that Bane's presence exuded, even when we weren't seeing him. The fight was great, and so was the talk between Bruce and his mother (an idea mentioned in Batman #6, by King, Reis, Prado and Maiolo). Also, seeing Batman pull a reverse Knightfall on Bane was awesome

    The Button - 21-22: Good fanservice, but not much thing to work on

    Brave and the Mold - 23: Another King/Gerads win

    Aftermath - 24
    : I think Gotham Girl was given too much weight in Batman's decission, but taking the previous stories of the run into account, it makes sense.

    War of Jokes and Riddles - 25-32: Once I understood it wasn't about the war, but about how Bruce's felt about it and the decission of Selina, this story became much more enjoyable. And Kite Man's interludes were amazing

    Rules of Engagement - 33-35: I enjoyed this more than I thought I would. It also made me a Joelle Jones' fan.

    Annual #2 - Date Nights/Last Rites
    : The idea of not just looking to the past, but also to the future, was super effective. It hit all the right elements

    Superfriends - 36-37: This is how you do a Batman and Superman story!!! Also, a Catwoman and Lois Lane Story! Instead of just having Batman and Superman fight, King showed us why they are real friends. Though I'm not against having a Batman v Superman story once in a while.

    The Origin of Bruce Wayne - 38: I could see the twist coming, but it was nicely done.

    Superfriends part 2 - 39-40
    : WW's part wasn't as good, but the interactions between characters were fun and I had more dosis of Joelle Jones art. In the Supes' part, we had Clay Mann and Seth Mann, and in both parts Jordie Bellaire's colors iirc, so artistically both stories were a win

    Everyone Loves Ivy - 41-43
    : I like it conceptually, and the end was pretty emotional, but I didn't feel like the reboot was needed, some plots were left hanging in the air and it felt too much on the nose about King "rectifying" what he did in WoJaR

    Bride or Burglar - 44
    : A nice trip down memory lane, even to someone who hadn't read the stories it referenced, like me. Selina choosing her dress was amazingly rendered by Joelle

    The Gift - 45-47
    : Just a fun and over the top story, not meant to be taking seriously, though dealing with some serious topics, as most of King's work does.

    The Best Man - 48-49: A great philosophycal talk by Joker and a debate between Selina and Joker abouto who is Batman and if he can be happy or happiness would be his end

    I will also add

    Batman/Elmer Fudd: A great crossover that ended up being so much more that what one expects from this type of book. Also, Lee Weeks showed why he deserved a spot on Batman's main title

    DC Nation #0
    : A frightening story with Joker. An astonishing prelude to "The Best Man"

    I mentioned some of the artist who had work on the title, but really, everyone deserves an applause. This book has been looking great since day 1 of Rebirth
    Last edited by Chubistian; 06-22-2018 at 03:36 PM.
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

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