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  1. #1261
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    It's not that I have a huge problem with it - just that when I think about the collection of this, it will read very poorly to follow up the neck crack with the beach scene. I mean, they can do a better version of the editorial caption - start 78 in the collection with "Before" at the top, as King is wont to do - but this just gets back to what we've discussed before: the shortening of this run, whenever it happened internally (my guess is it was actually happening before we found out about it by a bit), has really broken up the flow in order for King to hit all the story and emotional plot points he needs to hit. He's lost, what, 8 issues, for his run, and that doesn't even account for the fact that Bat/Cat #1 has to be a first issue which means it'll have to be written a bit differently than issue 86 would.
    If I were to make an assumption, I would say that the decision to shorten it came probably about a week or so before we found out, since it was pretty clear the Bleeding Cool article was not something they were anticipating and more likely than not wanted to keep the Bat/Cat book a surprise until the 2020 solicits, rather than announce it half a year in advance. The announcement he was writing New Gods came about a week after the initial article too, so presumably that was when their talks and discussions about him taking the job were solidified, so by then is when had just a few months to start tweaking everything.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  2. #1262
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I disagree with that it'll read poorly. I think your idea of "before" as an opening caption is a good one, though!

    Very interesting counterfactual suppositions about what could have been. As a fan of King's 12-issue runs, I think that this is actually a plus for the overall story, but I do think all the restructuring has been a bit disorienting.

    This article was retweeted by Clay Mann, and is hilarious: https://twitter.com/EW/status/1173990335632105472
    My day is better for having read that article. Thanks!

    I agree with you, broadly, that King on 12 issues is peak King, and look forward to Bat/Cat. And CoB has been fine so far. I'm just wanting my future Batman by King omnibii to be the best they can be
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  3. #1263
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    My day is better for having read that article. Thanks!

    I agree with you, broadly, that King on 12 issues is peak King, and look forward to Bat/Cat. And CoB has been fine so far. I'm just wanting my future Batman by King omnibii to be the best they can be
    I feel ya on the omnibuses! I'm hopeful that we'll get a two-volume one!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  4. #1264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Yeah, unless it directly changes how the plot plays out later, I'm ignoring that editor's note. It's an editor's note, not a writer's note. And DC's editors are BAD.
    This immediately aged very poorly
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  5. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    This immediately aged very poorly
    I thought the reveal was quite nice, and will hopefully put to rest all the frustrating rumors. (I know they won't.)
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  6. #1266
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I thought the reveal was quite nice, and will hopefully put to rest all the frustrating rumors. (I know they won't.)
    I agree. It makes it all the more interesting. I clearly jumped the gun, but I'm now more curious about the lack of editor's note in issue 78.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  7. #1267
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I feel ya on the omnibuses! I'm hopeful that we'll get a two-volume one!
    I think they'd do it in three. It's still a really long run!
    V1: 1-32 + Annual 1, The Button and Monster Men tie-ins
    V2: 33-60, 64, 65 + Flash 64, 65, Annual 2
    V3: 61-85, B/C 1-12 + anything else that comes up

    *Annual 3 will clearly be saved for if/when Tom Taylor takes over the title after King
    *You can argue for or against including The Price in here at all, but my inclination is to leave it in, and that's before we've seen if the Gotham part of that story comes back or not - if it does, The Price *has* to be in here.
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  8. #1268
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    I think they'd do it in three. It's still a really long run!
    V1: 1-32 + Annual 1, The Button and Monster Men tie-ins
    V2: 33-60, 64, 65 + Flash 64, 65, Annual 2
    V3: 61-85, B/C 1-12 + anything else that comes up

    *Annual 3 will clearly be saved for if/when Tom Taylor takes over the title after King
    *You can argue for or against including The Price in here at all, but my inclination is to leave it in, and that's before we've seen if the Gotham part of that story comes back or not - if it does, The Price *has* to be in here.

    I hope that Tom Taylor replaces King.
    I like how he wrote Bruce and Selina's relationship in the Injustice comics.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

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  9. #1269
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    My thoughts on the editor's note was it was an afterthought on their part due to the buzz 77 got. They want to leave Alfred's fate still a mystery. Rumors have been posted that due to the buzz of 77, DC may have changed the original outcome of Alfred's fate. I've seen two articles (one by CBR and one by Bleeding Cool) with different interpretations of the events and what it meant when Batman made his comments about Alfred and Damien in the issue.

    I loved the relationship development and finally coming to an understanding and agreement of where they met. As great of an arc Rooftops was, this was even better.

  10. #1270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyxx1481 View Post
    My thoughts on the editor's note was it was an afterthought on their part due to the buzz 77 got. They want to leave Alfred's fate still a mystery. Rumors have been posted that due to the buzz of 77, DC may have changed the original outcome of Alfred's fate. I've seen two articles (one by CBR and one by Bleeding Cool) with different interpretations of the events and what it meant when Batman made his comments about Alfred and Damien in the issue.

    I loved the relationship development and finally coming to an understanding and agreement of where they met. As great of an arc Rooftops was, this was even better.
    I think when a lot of people whine and gripe because they don't like what they're getting is just very irritating
    it's like kids reacting like they didn't get the toys that they want
    People cannot always get what they want
    You can't please all nor most readers

    I didn't like the New52
    I didn't like how it removed much of Selina's development including her relationship with Bruce
    Last edited by Starrius; 09-18-2019 at 12:01 PM.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  11. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    I hope that Tom Taylor replaces King.
    I like how he wrote Bruce and Selina's relationship in the Injustice comics.
    I do too! He seems to like the idea of Bruce and Selina as a solid couple/partners, and that would be a great pick-up from the Tom King run. They were great together in the Injustice comics. In that one annual that flashes back, he basically writes that their whole thing of teasing each other is more like a game for them that they pretend at, because when Bruce is shot it's revealed that they're actually firmly together. And that's even eight years earlier or something.

    I think he'd be the perfect choice to pick up after this run.

  12. #1272
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyxx1481 View Post
    My thoughts on the editor's note was it was an afterthought on their part due to the buzz 77 got. They want to leave Alfred's fate still a mystery. Rumors have been posted that due to the buzz of 77, DC may have changed the original outcome of Alfred's fate. I've seen two articles (one by CBR and one by Bleeding Cool) with different interpretations of the events and what it meant when Batman made his comments about Alfred and Damien in the issue.

    I loved the relationship development and finally coming to an understanding and agreement of where they met. As great of an arc Rooftops was, this was even better.
    Now, I know I've said that Tom King is constantly revising things, and this being an editor's note means that it's not even King doing it, but I firmly think that this is a deliberate flashback, and it entwines with the first three issues of City of Bane really well once you've read them all five in a row.

    And this is absolutely better than Rooftops. It's the culmination of what Rooftops, and I Am Suicide, and even I Am Gotham started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    I think when a lot of people whine and gripe because they don't like what they're getting is just very irritating
    it's like kids reacting like they didn't get the toys that they want
    People cannot always get what they want
    You can't please all nor most readers

    I didn't like the New52
    I didn't like how it removed much of Selina's development including her relationship with Bruce
    I struggle with this myself. I really dislike how people were saying "How dare Bruce let Alfred die while he makes out with Catwoman in Hawai'i!" And then when you find out that he didn't, and he has a plan, they're just finding new reasons to hate Bruce as written by King.

    That being said - it's not wrong to hate this run, or hate any run. I think it's unproductive to dwell on that (which is why I'm struggling with my half-formed intention to reread the Snyder run, because I really dislike that run, but I kind of want to have it in my head so I can make a solid comparison between it and King's run), but you can't argue someone into loving something they hate.

    (I personally loved Valentine's run on Catwoman, even with the problems introduced by the n52, because her breaking down when Batman died was so powerful, and the run itself was so well written. But I know most Catwoman fans really hated it, and I totally get why.)
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  13. #1273
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    First post after being a looooong time lurker.

    I interpreted #78 and #79 to be a "meanwhile" story. While everything in previous issues were occuring, 78 and 79 were occuring. Pretty simple narrative trope. End on a shock and cut abruptly to a parallel narrative to build suspense when the threads converge.

    I love the hell out of King's run, but the editor's note and the addition of "Alfred signaled. He's safe. I'm sending Damien in." throw such a loop in the plot. Honestly, if you lose those two lines of dialogue, the page still reads well and the level of mental gymnastics required to understand the logistics of this plot point become non existent.

    Hopefully they ditch it in the collection.

  14. #1274
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beware138 View Post
    First post after being a looooong time lurker.

    I interpreted #78 and #79 to be a "meanwhile" story. While everything in previous issues were occuring, 78 and 79 were occuring. Pretty simple narrative trope. End on a shock and cut abruptly to a parallel narrative to build suspense when the threads converge.

    I love the hell out of King's run, but the editor's note and the addition of "Alfred signaled. He's safe. I'm sending Damien in." throw such a loop in the plot. Honestly, if you lose those two lines of dialogue, the page still reads well and the level of mental gymnastics required to understand the logistics of this plot point become non existent.

    Hopefully they ditch it in the collection.
    First off, WELCOME! I'm so glad you're here!

    Second, I think you're definitely right about this being a "meanwhile" story. It all happens between the Nain Pit and the end of #77. I think the editor's note is kinda stupid, but I liked the reference to Bruce talking to Damian, because it means he is actually paying attention, because he's Batman.

    I'd be curious to hear the loop you see in the plot, though!
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews

  15. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beware138 View Post
    First post after being a looooong time lurker.

    I interpreted #78 and #79 to be a "meanwhile" story. While everything in previous issues were occuring, 78 and 79 were occuring. Pretty simple narrative trope. End on a shock and cut abruptly to a parallel narrative to build suspense when the threads converge.

    I love the hell out of King's run, but the editor's note and the addition of "Alfred signaled. He's safe. I'm sending Damien in." throw such a loop in the plot. Honestly, if you lose those two lines of dialogue, the page still reads well and the level of mental gymnastics required to understand the logistics of this plot point become non existent.

    Hopefully they ditch it in the collection.
    Welcome!

    The editor's note was a bit dumb. I contend the Damian line will turn out to important to the main story in one of two ways, and it depends on if it was actually Alfred whose neck was "snapped." If it was Punch or Clayface (or some similarly impervious character who can duplicate Alfred), and "Alfred signaled" is meant to imply "the switch has been made, we're ready for Damian to start the distraction," then the line is necessary and important to Bruce's plan for taking back Gotham. If that was Alfred that Bane killed, then it's necessary to establish that Bruce and Alfred have (in the course of planning for literally everything) established a "Bruce, there's no choice; you have to sacrifice me" signal (it's important for their relationship and to absolve Damian of culpability in Alfred's death).

    I'm inclined towards "it was Punch," but I think the history of Alfred and Bruce's relationship leaves the sacrifice angle in play. If Batman is a suicide mission, as Bruce sometimes thinks of it, certainly being Alfred could be one as well.
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