King Batman Run: Analysis and Enjoyment Thread

[lilyrose]

King will keep them as a couple, but I do think after all this, there ought to be some permanent shift in terms of their relationship, whether it's a wedding or a child or something. I mean if it just ends with them together but nothing has changed, it just makes it incredibly easy for someone else to never acknowledge it going forward, and then it's like nothing ever really happened.

[charliehustle415]

There is nothing I said about prohibiting fair criticism. However, if you make posts here only about the negatives, that is the opposite of the purpose of this thread.

I have said, I believe in this thread, that if we get a Hush style ending, breaking Bad/Cat up, in Bat/Cat 12, I will be in board the "this run failed" train. I don't think it will, but there are certainly ways King could fail still. However, the purpose of the thread is to provide a space where we aren't posting short takes about how the run or issue just sucks every time a new issue drops.

Amen, I used to love going into the Thor Appreciation thread, but it has devolved into a Aaron bash thread.

Nevertheless, I think King will try his best to do something with Bat/Cat but it will no doubt be stymied by editorial. In this day and age of corporate superheroes real change cannot happen even if it would be temporary.

I mean even Morrison couldn't finish his run with out meddling, I remember reading a interview where he wanted Steph to be involved way more but then New 52 happened that got thrown out.

And we're talking about Grant "The Mystical God of Comics" Morrison couldn't escape editorial mandate.

So I have a hard time believing that King will be able to tell his story.

[bob.schoonover]

Amen, I used to love going into the Thor Appreciation thread, but it has devolved into a Aaron bash thread.

Nevertheless, I think King will try his best to do something with Bat/Cat but it will no doubt be stymied by editorial. In this day and age of corporate superheroes real change cannot happen even if it would be temporary.

I mean even Morrison couldn't finish his run with out meddling, I remember reading a interview where he wanted Steph to be involved way more but then New 52 happened that got thrown out.

And we're talking about Grant "The Mystical God of Comics" Morrison couldn't escape editorial mandate.

So I have a hard time believing that King will be able to tell his story.

Man, now you have me thinking we'll get a maudlin, sad ending to Bat/Cat the way we got one for Batman, Inc. (which I really do think was more about Morrison being upset w/editorial and the Bat-direction more than what he'd originally planned out).

[charliehustle415]

Man, now you have me thinking we'll get a maudlin, sad ending to Bat/Cat the way we got one for Batman, Inc. (which I really do think was more about Morrison being upset w/editorial and the Bat-direction more than what he'd originally planned out).

That's my thinking, I mean I think that's why the Oroboros, the snake eating it's own tail, was so heavily featured in Morrison's final issues. DC continually eats its own creations and starts anew. DC loves beginning a new story cycle with the same status quo from decades before over and over again. They didn't even let Jon Kent stay the same, the fact that we still have Damian is a miracle.

I hope King get's to do what he wants to, but history begs to differ.

[millernumber1]

Amen, I used to love going into the Thor Appreciation thread, but it has devolved into a Aaron bash thread.

Nevertheless, I think King will try his best to do something with Bat/Cat but it will no doubt be stymied by editorial. In this day and age of corporate superheroes real change cannot happen even if it would be temporary.

I mean even Morrison couldn't finish his run with out meddling, I remember reading a interview where he wanted Steph to be involved way more but then New 52 happened that got thrown out.

And we're talking about Grant "The Mystical God of Comics" Morrison couldn't escape editorial mandate.

So I have a hard time believing that King will be able to tell his story.

Even if he has to go AU, I'm okay if he tells the story that I think he's been setting up (Bat/Cat getting together in a long term way, preferably married). We shall see, and hope!

Man, now you have me thinking we'll get a maudlin, sad ending to Bat/Cat the way we got one for Batman, Inc. (which I really do think was more about Morrison being upset w/editorial and the Bat-direction more than what he'd originally planned out).

I agree - I think the frustration of the ending of Batman Inc vol 2 is more about Morrison's frustration than necessarily paying off the story he started writing. I think he did the best he could with it, working with things that did mean a lot to him (the conflict between Talia and Bruce reflecting the conflict in his childhood between his parents, I think I read), but in a way that really kind of destroys the whole admirability and nobility of Batman that he'd championed so much in the middle of the run, with RIP, B&R, and the first volume of Batman Inc.

However, I hope that King stays with his original idea of this leg of the story still being an upswing.

That's my thinking, I mean I think that's why the Oroboros, the snake eating it's own tail, was so heavily featured in Morrison's final issues. DC continually eats its own creations and starts anew. DC loves beginning a new story cycle with the same status quo from decades before over and over again. They didn't even let Jon Kent stay the same, the fact that we still have Damian is a miracle.

I hope King get's to do what he wants to, but history begs to differ.

That's a really solid take on Oroboros and comics. I just think that it's really dour as the ending of something.

[Inversed]

There is nothing I said about prohibiting fair criticism. However, if you make posts here only about the negatives, that is the opposite of the purpose of this thread.

I have said, I believe in this thread, that if we get a Hush style ending, breaking Bad/Cat up, in Bat/Cat 12, I will be in board the "this run failed" train. I don't think it will, but there are certainly ways King could fail still. However, the purpose of the thread is to provide a space where we aren't posting short takes about how the run or issue just sucks every time a new issue drops.

Yeah, there is a difference between criticism and just complete and nonstop hatred, which I think at least for the most part this has avoided the latter.

Amen, I used to love going into the Thor Appreciation thread, but it has devolved into a Aaron bash thread.

Nevertheless, I think King will try his best to do something with Bat/Cat but it will no doubt be stymied by editorial. In this day and age of corporate superheroes real change cannot happen even if it would be temporary.

I mean even Morrison couldn't finish his run with out meddling, I remember reading a interview where he wanted Steph to be involved way more but then New 52 happened that got thrown out.

And we're talking about Grant "The Mystical God of Comics" Morrison couldn't escape editorial mandate.

So I have a hard time believing that King will be able to tell his story.

I think at the very least they're doing everything they can to make him happy no matter how the ending of Bat/Cat turns out. Letting the book be delayed to give them time, presumably giving him full creative control for Strange Adventures, and the big movie job with New Gods, so I don't think it'll be any near as bitter of an end as Morrison's ended up being. (Not to mention I am fairly certain Marvel has the button ready to call King up and offer him whatever he wants once he feels like leaving, so they wanna keep their hold on him)

I agree - I think the frustration of the ending of Batman Inc vol 2 is more about Morrison's frustration than necessarily paying off the story he started writing. I think he did the best he could with it, working with things that did mean a lot to him (the conflict between Talia and Bruce reflecting the conflict in his childhood between his parents, I think I read), but in a way that really kind of destroys the whole admirability and nobility of Batman that he'd championed so much in the middle of the run, with RIP, B&R, and the first volume of Batman Inc.

However, I hope that King stays with his original idea of this leg of the story still being an upswing.

I believe he mentioned that using the Phantasm was Clay Mann's idea when they started developing Bat/Cat, so it does seem like it'll end up being fairly different overall from his initial plans, but I do hope his original thesis and ultimate outcome remain the same.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, there is a difference between criticism and just complete and nonstop hatred, which I think at least for the most part this has avoided the latter.

I think at the very least they're doing everything they can to make him happy no matter how the ending of Bat/Cat turns out. Letting the book be delayed to give them time, presumably giving him full creative control for Strange Adventures, and the big movie job with New Gods, so I don't think it'll be any near as bitter of an end as Morrison's ended up being. (Not to mention I am fairly certain Marvel has the button ready to call King up and offer him whatever he wants once he feels like leaving, so they wanna keep their hold on him)

I believe he mentioned that using the Phantasm was Clay Mann's idea when they started developing Bat/Cat, so it does seem like it'll end up being fairly different overall from his initial plans, but I do hope his original thesis and ultimate outcome remain the same.

I think we've also avoided mindless adulation as well, though. I just want to avoid having a lot of drive-by "this run sucks" type content.

Looking at the situation with King and Snyder, I'm REALLY curious if DC is terrified that they're going to lose both of them to Marvel in the next two years, after what they did to get Bendis. I personally wouldn't necessarily mind King jumping ship, as I liked Vision a ton, but I prefer the DC universe to the Marvel universe, so I'd rather he stay if possible.

You're right that Mann suggested Phantasm, but I think thematically she's absolutely in line with what he was doing, so I have little doubt that his thesis is mostly the same.

[bob.schoonover]

I'm pretty excited about doing a group re-read in January for King's Batman run. I started putting together a kind of medium-chunk re-read list. The idea would be not going through issue by issue, but doing bigger chunks (including tie-ins) so we can discuss themes/plot points/foreshadowing. If anyone else is interested in re-reading that way, let me know. This is my first idea for the chunks. The format is (total number of issues) Arcs (issues of Batman)

(12) I am Gotham; Night of the Monster Men (1-8)
(12) I am Suicide, Rooftops, I am Bane (9-20)
(6+A) Annual 1, The Button, Brave and the Mold, Proposal (21-24)
(8) War of Joke and Riddles (25-32)
(8+A) Rules of Engagement, Superfriends, Origin of BW, Annual 2 (33-40)
(10) Everyone Loves Ivy, The Gift, Best Man, Wedding (41-50)
(14) Cold Days, Beast of Burden, The Price, Tyrant’s Wing (51-60, 64,65)
(12) Knightmares; The Fall and the Fallen (61-63, 66-74)
(11+A) City of Bane, Annual 4, Detective 1000 story (75-85)

I tried to split it where possible into thematic arcs - Rules of Engagement thru Superfriends are more "happy couple" engagement stories, whereas the Ivy story through the wedding are all about priming Selina to say no. I'm open to suggestions on both the re-read format as well as the actual breakdown of issues in each chunk

[charliehustle415]

I'm pretty excited about doing a group re-read in January for King's Batman run. I started putting together a kind of medium-chunk re-read list. The idea would be not going through issue by issue, but doing bigger chunks (including tie-ins) so we can discuss themes/plot points/foreshadowing. If anyone else is interested in re-reading that way, let me know. This is my first idea for the chunks. The format is (total number of issues) Arcs (issues of Batman)

(12) I am Gotham; Night of the Monster Men (1-8)
(12) I am Suicide, Rooftops, I am Bane (9-20)
(6+A) Annual 1, The Button, Brave and the Mold, Proposal (21-24)
(8) War of Joke and Riddles (25-32)
(8+A) Rules of Engagement, Superfriends, Origin of BW, Annual 2 (33-40)
(10) Everyone Loves Ivy, The Gift, Best Man, Wedding (41-50)
(14) Cold Days, Beast of Burden, The Price, Tyrant’s Wing (51-60, 64,65)
(12) Knightmares; The Fall and the Fallen (61-63, 66-74)
(11+A) City of Bane, Annual 4, Detective 1000 story (75-85)

I tried to split it where possible into thematic arcs - Rules of Engagement thru Superfriends are more "happy couple" engagement stories, whereas the Ivy story through the wedding are all about priming Selina to say no. I'm open to suggestions on both the re-read format as well as the actual breakdown of issues in each chunk

This will be cool, do you know where King's Tec 100 story is collected?

[millernumber1]

I'm pretty excited about doing a group re-read in January for King's Batman run. I started putting together a kind of medium-chunk re-read list. The idea would be not going through issue by issue, but doing bigger chunks (including tie-ins) so we can discuss themes/plot points/foreshadowing. If anyone else is interested in re-reading that way, let me know. This is my first idea for the chunks. The format is (total number of issues) Arcs (issues of Batman)

(12) I am Gotham; Night of the Monster Men (1-8)
(12) I am Suicide, Rooftops, I am Bane (9-20)
(6+A) Annual 1, The Button, Brave and the Mold, Proposal (21-24)
(8) War of Joke and Riddles (25-32)
(8+A) Rules of Engagement, Superfriends, Origin of BW, Annual 2 (33-40)
(10) Everyone Loves Ivy, The Gift, Best Man, Wedding (41-50)
(14) Cold Days, Beast of Burden, The Price, Tyrant’s Wing (51-60, 64,65)
(12) Knightmares; The Fall and the Fallen (61-63, 66-74)
(11+A) City of Bane, Annual 4, Detective 1000 story (75-85)

I tried to split it where possible into thematic arcs - Rules of Engagement thru Superfriends are more "happy couple" engagement stories, whereas the Ivy story through the wedding are all about priming Selina to say no. I'm open to suggestions on both the re-read format as well as the actual breakdown of issues in each chunk

Great idea! I don't want to set a scedule in stone until we have Bat/Cat #1 solicited, so we can lead into that (barring delays, of course, crossing fingers). But I like what you're thinking here. Just one question - do we want to include Heroes in Crisis? I like that story, and it does have definite ties to Everyone Loves Ivy and The Gift, but I also know that even some fans who like King's Batman really dislike it, so I am only offering, not at all insisting.

I do think we should include the little story in Batman Secret Files #1, though. I'd put that in the Knightmares section.

Do we want to include discussion of the non-King stuff in the Annual #1, Night of the Monster Men, The Button (we probably should), The Price? I see the 3rd Annual is left out, since it was all Tom Taylor, which I agree with, but the others were still on there.

[millernumber1]

This will be cool, do you know where King's Tec 100 story is collected?

I think it's only collected in the Deluxe edition so far.

[bob.schoonover]

Great idea! I don't want to set a scedule in stone until we have Bat/Cat #1 solicited, so we can lead into that (barring delays, of course, crossing fingers). But I like what you're thinking here. Just one question - do we want to include Heroes in Crisis? I like that story, and it does have definite ties to Everyone Loves Ivy and The Gift, but I also know that even some fans who like King's Batman really dislike it, so I am only offering, not at all insisting.

I do think we should include the little story in Batman Secret Files #1, though. I'd put that in the Knightmares section.

Do we want to include discussion of the non-King stuff in the Annual #1, Night of the Monster Men, The Button (we probably should), The Price? I see the 3rd Annual is left out, since it was all Tom Taylor, which I agree with, but the others were still on there.

I'm in favor of being all encompassing. It would seem weird to skip Monster Men since the Hugo Strange plot builds out of I Am Gotham. If Doomsday Clock #12 ends up explaining something about The Button or Thomas Wayne, we can include that, too. I have no problem putting in HiC, annual 3, etc. I just wouldn't stray too far away - no Ric/Nightwing, none of Snyder's stuff since none of it rolls back into King's run, same with Tynion's run on 'Tec. To be fair, I'd also be okay not including The Price unless one of these last four issues loops back to deal with the Gotham reveal.


I just realized 2 days ago that I never picked up the first Secret Files, so off to eBay I go.

[millernumber1]

I'm in favor of being all encompassing. It would seem weird to skip Monster Men since the Hugo Strange plot builds out of I Am Gotham. If Doomsday Clock #12 ends up explaining something about The Button or Thomas Wayne, we can include that, too. I have no problem putting in HiC, annual 3, etc. I just wouldn't stray too far away - no Ric/Nightwing, none of Snyder's stuff since none of it rolls back into King's run, same with Tynion's run on 'Tec. To be fair, I'd also be okay not including The Price unless one of these last four issues loops back to deal with the Gotham reveal.


I just realized 2 days ago that I never picked up the first Secret Files, so off to eBay I go.

Sounds good to me. When we have the first solicitation for Bat/Cat, probably in December, we can firm things up a bit more, but let's hold your grouping loosely as our plan for now! Thanks for putting this together!

[charliehustle415]

I'm pretty excited about doing a group re-read in January for King's Batman run. I started putting together a kind of medium-chunk re-read list. The idea would be not going through issue by issue, but doing bigger chunks (including tie-ins) so we can discuss themes/plot points/foreshadowing. If anyone else is interested in re-reading that way, let me know. This is my first idea for the chunks. The format is (total number of issues) Arcs (issues of Batman)

(12) I am Gotham; Night of the Monster Men (1-8)
(12) I am Suicide, Rooftops, I am Bane (9-20)
(6+A) Annual 1, The Button, Brave and the Mold, Proposal (21-24)
(8) War of Joke and Riddles (25-32)
(8+A) Rules of Engagement, Superfriends, Origin of BW, Annual 2 (33-40)
(10) Everyone Loves Ivy, The Gift, Best Man, Wedding (41-50)
(14) Cold Days, Beast of Burden, The Price, Tyrant’s Wing (51-60, 64,65)
(12) Knightmares; The Fall and the Fallen (61-63, 66-74)
(11+A) City of Bane, Annual 4, Detective 1000 story (75-85)

I tried to split it where possible into thematic arcs - Rules of Engagement thru Superfriends are more "happy couple" engagement stories, whereas the Ivy story through the wedding are all about priming Selina to say no. I'm open to suggestions on both the re-read format as well as the actual breakdown of issues in each chunk

Also can't forget Batman v Fudd

[Inversed]

This will be cool, do you know where King's Tec 100 story is collected?

I also think we're going have to wait until #85's release to find out where Tec 1000 fits into place. Because I could see that end up fitting in multiple spots, possibly either at the very end of the run, or even during Knightmares.

Also adding to the list, Rebirth #1 would be before I Am Gotham obviously. The Elmer Fudd story could probably go right before the Proposal. The DC Nation #0 story right before The Best Man. Secret Files #1 would probably go after Cold Days. And even though he didn't write them, I'd say you could throw in Annual #3 right before The Tyrant Wing and Secret Files #2 right before City Of Bane.

As for Heroes In Crisis, I don't really consider it a Batman story, which is why I don't think you necessarily need to include it alongside the rest of King's run. The Price is probably could enough since, even though King didn't write it, it's still a Batman story so it fits more into his overall run's narrative. Though that's up to everyone else if they feel like including it or not.

(And fun side note: If you don't include issues he co-wrote, King has reached his 100 issues goal:
85 - 5 = 80 + 12 Bat/Cat = 92 + 3 Annuals + Tec 1000 + DC Nation 0 + Secret Files 1 + Elmer Fudd + Weeks special)