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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    In the book Comic Creators on Spider-Man, Michelinie said he thought it was a mistake to marry Peter, but he wrote it since that was the status quo at the time.
    Like I said, I couldn't remember, but any lack of love for the concept didn't come across on the page. He wrote some of the most enjoyable marriage stories.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    When one creative team after another is saddled with working with a status quo that was shoehorned onto the book in the first place and the book is one that's going to continue for as long as the publisher is still publishing, it's the status quo that needs to change.

    The marriage was forced onto the book. Everyone who worked at Marvel at the time says as much. It was a sales grab/marketing stunt that went out of control.
    LOL, what in modern comics isn't a "money grab"? One could argue every major event nowadays is.
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Yet Bendis said that the readers will see that they really do care for Superman and his family. A very weird things to do when Brian Cunningham is wholly against marriage in comics. Unless it's just Spider-Man's marriage he has issues with. I know a guy just dislikes the idea of Superman and Batman having kids on the grounds that it takes away from the fantasy. I'm not even sure what that even means but given how he already hates Damian for allegedly being in his eyes an infallible Mary Sue but yet I can see that Damian has flaws and weaknesses. I think he thinks kids of Batman and Superman are bound to be unbeatable. What is wrong with comics? You can't marry people off and you can't let them have any kids it's a sad life these stuffy old men have. Interesting that Fabian Nicieza didn't like it since he was the architect to giving Tim Drake the Batfamily's Spider-Man lots of issues with romance in his Red Robin run.
    Good point, for example, I initially detested the concept behind Damian Wayne. I felt Batman should not have a biological son. That said, DC proved me wrong. They have made Damian into an engaging character. Even back in the day, I would have never (if given power at DC) pushed an agenda to erase the character from existence. I think to do otherwise is both disrespectful to those who came before as well as admitting your own lack of creativity. There is a lot that can be done, as DC has shown us.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-12-2018 at 09:48 AM.
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  4. #49
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    At least when the marriage came about, it was a money grab with some heart to it, and a pay-off to decades worth of storytelling.

    If you're going to sucker someone in, make sure their investment is rewarded.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    LOL, what in modern comics isn't a "money grab"? One could argue every major event nowadays is.
    Every comic is published with the hopes that it will sell and make a profit, yes.

    But obviously some storylines and events are meant to draw in bigger numbers, the Spider-marriage being one such instance.

    The problem isn't wanting to sell more comics - money is what drives the whole publishing engine - the problem is in focusing on the stunt or event but neglecting to weigh the consequences going forward.

    When Marvel pulled the trigger on the marriage, they clearly did so without seriously considering what lay past that.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    At least when the marriage came about, it was a money grab with some heart to it, and a pay-off to decades worth of storytelling.

    If you're going to sucker someone in, make sure their investment is rewarded.
    As someone who was around when the marriage actually happened, I didn't detect any heart to it.

    It seemed like an ass pull of a development, not a rewarding pay off to anything.

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Inversed's Avatar
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    When it comes to the concept of marriage, I can see the arguments on both sides, it allows the character to grow, but it also hinders story concepts and ideas.

    One thing however I will defend and argue, is that romance & relationships are an important part of Spider-Man. In almost every other medium, and in almost all the other comic spinoffs, there's usually a subplot about Peter falling for someone, or someone falling for him, and the feelings are used as a good external motivation for him.

    That's my personal biggest disappointment with the past couple years of main Spider-Man is we have had barely any good relationship stuff, and I don't mean just with MJ, I mean with anyone. The best I can think of is the few flirtatious interactions with Black Cat, and a couple really good and nice moments when he was with Carlie. Can't really think of anything else, which is a shame because I think showing him with someone else in a relationship like that where they both really care for each other, even for just a little while, can create an extra sense of enjoyment and sweetness to the story.
    Current Reading List: Spider-Gwen, Amazing Spider-Man, Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Marvel Two-In-One, Tales Of Suspense, Champions, Despicable Deadpool

  8. #53
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Good point, for example, I initially detested the concept behind Damian Wayne. I felt Batman should not have a biological son. That said, DC proved me wrong. They have made Damian into an engaging character. Even back in the day, I would have never (if given power at DC) pushed an agenda to erase the character from existence. I think to do otherwise is both disrespectful to those who came before as well as admitting your own lack of creativity. There is a lot that can be done, as DC has shown us.
    Glad you think so. Damian is a cool character I can actually identify with to a degree anyway. Ironically Damian's creator Grant Morrison wanted to kill off Damian as he only intended him to be one off thing. And I don't think fans would have said no to Peter having kids once Aunt May finally and truly kicks the bucket which she came close before you know what came. Annie or mayday would have been a delight to add to the Marvel Universe better than some of the new Spider-Man characters we have now anyway.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    When it comes to the concept of marriage, I can see the arguments on both sides, it allows the character to grow, but it also hinders story concepts and ideas.
    Not at all..some of the concepts and ideas are no longer needed because they're ridiculously repetitive

    Time to consider new things, but that requires creativity and who wants that?

  10. #55
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    I think that there can be an balance to a married Spider-Man and single Spider-Man. I disagree with the whole "storybook" ending approach the editor spoke about it, there should be less of "happily ever after" type endings and more representation of healthy and on going marriages. The story never stops after you get married. That's just silly.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Not at all..some of the concepts and ideas are no longer needed because they're ridiculously repetitive

    Time to consider new things, but that requires creativity and who wants that?
    You know, telling stories with either a single Spider-Man or a married one both require creativity.

  12. #57
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Not at all..some of the concepts and ideas are no longer needed because they're ridiculously repetitive

    Time to consider new things, but that requires creativity and who wants that?
    That argument works both ways.

    "Oh boy, time for the 500th time Peter misses a date because he's out fighting the Vulture or the Shocker or whoever. Aren't you excited?"

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    You know, telling stories with either a single Spider-Man or a married one both require creativity.
    Yes, but to say upfront you can't write one or the other is to admit you have a limited imagination. That is my argument in a nutshell.
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    That argument works both ways.

    "Oh boy, time for the 500th time Peter misses a date because he's out fighting the Vulture or the Shocker or whoever. Aren't you excited?"
    Exactly my point. Which is why I loved Superior Spider-Man for example. Doing the same old thing simply because it is a safe bet shows a terrible lack of creativity that should be questioned not applauded. In addition, to say I need something reset to a "safe" status quo from years ago because I can't deal with the current state of the property and want to retreat into familiarity is also a symptom of this same problem.
    Last edited by Celgress; 06-12-2018 at 11:30 AM.
    "You'll never learn to fly now 'til you're standing at the cliff."

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    The point is Marvel clearly understand it's still sustainable, but they'd rather condition people into thinking it isn't just to justify a stubborn need for status quo, afraid to look forward where it counts. It's a very weird stance to take.
    It seems unlikely that Marvel would waste time and energy splitting up the couple if they believed it to be sustainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    How are Gwen and MJ not foundational to Spidey's mythos?
    They're not in the first Marvel masterworks.
    Sincerely,
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