DC Editor Brian Cunningham remembers Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21

[Tuck]

I don't think the timeline works on this - MJ and Pete reconciled in 50 and had the missed opportunity a few months earlier (so JMS had this planned for a number of months before 50) - it sounds like OMD/ending the marriage really went from Quesada hope to action item while planning the lead up to Civil War (let's guess over 2 years after 50).

JMS has said he was told going in to the run that the marriage would be dissolved at the end.

[bob.schoonover]

JMS has said he was told going in to the run that the marriage would be dissolved at the end.

I missed that quote. Interesting. I do think, to an extent, it makes sense to get them back together since they hadn't locked down how they'd dissolve the marriage until later on - leaving them estranged precluded certain options for dissolution that would have been worth debating.

[David Walton]

I don't agree, I thought the marriage was well timed for where both characters were in their lives and the annual was a nice slice of life story.

For where they were in their lives? Sure, agreed.

But if memory serves, the proposal came within a few issues of Peter still being in a relationship with the Black Cat.

I just mean that they could have led into the proposal a bit better, and the buildup to the marriage as well.

The stories that followed the marriage were better than the ones leading into it, at least as far as fleshing out why they'd made this choice.

[Miles To Go]

But if memory serves, the proposal came within a few issues of Peter still being in a relationship with the Black Cat.

It's not that big a deal. Happens all the time even in non-superhero fiction

[farmernudie]

The sooner this generation of writers and editors who are allergic to forward thinking are tossed out of the industry the better.

In the meantime, I take great pride that even today, the marriage still finds a way to cling to life.

Couldn't agree more!

[Prof. Warren]

I don't see how a divorce makes Peter seem old considering the rate of divorce in America and that it stretches across multiple age ranges.

I mean, Harry's divorced and he's as old as Peter is, but he doesn't suddenly seem middle-aged.

On a rational level, of course, that makes sense. But on an emotional level, it somehow just doesn't feel the same and I imagine anyone at Marvel would agree.

While Harry may not seem middle-aged, he also doesn't seem young. And being divorced gives a character a certain baggage that is fine for Harry to carry around but just wouldn't feel right to stick Peter with.

I think the obvious difference would be that one is a legal separation while the other is...y'know, making a deal with the devil.

Well, duh.

And one is pure fantasy and one is mundane reality.

A four issue story in which Peter is confronted with a manifestation of the devil and must make a choice that will change the very fabric of his existence is more likely to be seen by editors as a comic story fanciful enough to entertain readers as opposed to "This issue, Peter goes to the courthouse to file for legal separation!"

Who would try and teach kids that it's okay to make a deal with the devil ?

No one, obviously.

I was pointing out the absurdity of anyone thinking that, in an effort to avoid appearing to endorse divorce, that OMD was somehow presenting demonic deals as a preferable option.

The reality is that it's not teaching anything. It's just a story. And on a pragmatic level, it's just a mechanism to bring a character back to a particular status quo.

This is a thread about opinions on the marriage so it's reasonable to expect OMD to come up.

Yes. But it's also worth pointing out the wearying monotony of discussing OMD.

Outside of a few nerds, of which I include myself, absolutely no one cares about this sh*t.

[Frontier]

On a rational level, of course, that makes sense. But on an emotional level, it somehow just doesn't feel the same and I imagine anyone at Marvel would agree.

I would imagine on an emotional level it wouldn't be clear cut with Marvel.

I don't think everyone in their stable is as focused on Spider-Man being about "youth" as editorial is.

While Harry may not seem middle-aged, he also doesn't seem young. And being divorced gives a character a certain baggage that is fine for Harry to carry around but just wouldn't feel right to stick Peter with.

I don't think Harry seems any older then Peter does, especially considering they hang out so much.

Ditto with Johnny, who also had a failed marriage and is relatively known for his "youth" .

Peter already has enough relationship baggage as is that I don't think a failed marriage would be as far off (heck, that's effectively what his relationship with MJ is at this point anyways).

And one is pure fantasy and one is mundane reality.

A four issue story in which Peter is confronted with a manifestation of the devil and must make a choice that will change the very fabric of his existence is more likely to be seen by editors as a comic story fanciful enough to entertain readers as opposed to "This issue, Peter goes to the courthouse to file for legal separation!"

Isn't the balance between the fantastical and mundane part of what makes Spider-Man Spider-Man?

Although I would think most editors would view a story where Spider-Man sells his marriage to the devil as a bad comic story, but here we are...

No one, obviously.

I was pointing out the absurdity of anyone thinking that, in an effort to avoid appearing to endorse divorce, that OMD was somehow presenting demonic deals as a preferable option.

The reality is that it's not teaching anything. It's just a story. And on a pragmatic level, it's just a mechanism to bring a character back to a particular status quo.

But they did go with the deal with the devil as an alternative to just having the couple get a divorce.

I don't think they want to present it as "preferable," but for Marvel it was an acceptable alternative.

Yes. But it's also worth pointing out the wearying monotony of discussing OMD.

Outside of a few nerds, of which I include myself, absolutely no one cares about this sh*t.

I think there's plenty of reason for people to care or at least know about it if they're fans of Spider-Man and his relationships, particularly with Mary Jane.

[Grim Ghost]

The sooner this generation of writers and editors who are allergic to forward thinking are tossed out of the industry the better.

So basically fire anybody who disagrees with you about a fictional characters marriage? Wow. Take a look at what you're suggesting here man.

[Miles To Go]

So basically fire anybody who disagrees with you about a fictional characters marriage? Wow. Take a look at what you're suggesting here man.

Nothing wrong with suggesting an improvement.

All kidding aside, I wouldn't "fire" them, I'd just put them on books that benefit from their philosophies, Spider-Man shouldn't be one of them. Ever.

[farmernudie]

While Harry may not seem middle-aged, he also doesn't seem young. And being divorced gives a character a certain baggage that is fine for Harry to carry around but just wouldn't feel right to stick Peter with.

Yes. But it's also worth pointing out the wearying monotony of discussing OMD.

.

I know I grew up enjoying that i could relate with Pete, he went to school, I went to school. We had dating ups and downs. We both graduated. We both got jobs. I related as he grew per say. We both got married.

Bam, devil deal.

I can honestly say I'd never give MY wife up for my elderly aunt (whom I also love and she has lived a full life.) Seems like a dastardly thing to do as I sit here on the deck typing and her near me and my dog. Especially wouldn't throw my wife away in a devil deal of all things.

While I'm still reading, enjoying it here and there, I feel like I'm still reading an Ongoing Post OMD Direction. Several of my friends stopped reading entirely since OMD. It definitely made me start reading more DC.

To make a long story short, an ongoing devil deal is 100x more baggage than a divorce. Everyone reading Spiderman can relate to a divorce at any age, whether it is you yourself who had one or your parents. Again, they didn't need to show divorce papers filing stories but it would be way better than a devil deal where evil won period and Pete was a putz who threw his marriage under the bus. I can't relate to that as it makes view Pete as evil. Even Spawn faught the devil until he got his wife back, no matter what it took thru hell literally. That is love. Pete rolled over for the devil and no closure. He started dating again when he is sorta techincally still married except for devil deal divorce magic that they can't remember it except for a small part of his forever tormented soul will remember, the story stated. That's it, the end. That to me is horrible baggage and doesn't look heroic to me at all. This ongoing premise took the direction way more off the rails than a divorce would, but that is just my opinion.

[Prof. Warren]

I don't think everyone in their stable is as focused on Spider-Man being about "youth" as editorial is.

Debatable. But seeing as it's editorial who decides these things, their outlook would hold a higher clout, regardless.

If editorial didn't care, we wouldn't have had OMD in the first place.

I don't think Harry seems any older then Peter does, especially considering they hang out so much.

Ditto with Johnny, who also had a failed marriage and is relatively known for his "youth" .

Well, if you ever get a job writing for Marvel, you can certainly argue your opinion in those cases.

The big difference between Peter, Harry and Johnny, is that Peter is the only one that Marvel really cares about.

No one really cares how old Harry seems or doesn't seem. Ditto, for the most part, with Johnny. Neither of those are Marvel's flagship character, moving millions in merchandise every year.

Carrying these characters forward is, on a base level, about curating the IP. In the case of Peter Parker/Spider-Man, a large part of that is maintaining him as a youthful figure.

And, yes, someone could pipe up with "But wait, what about..." to compare a character of equal vintage who's been through more life experiences but no one cares. No one at Marvel, at least, which is all that matters. If you ever see an OMD style story with Johnny Storm, then you'll know they suddenly perceive it as an issue. Until then, they don't.

I think there's plenty of reason for people to care or at least know about it if they're fans of Spider-Man and his relationships, particularly with Mary Jane.

Most people don't care this much about it, nor should they. Life has moved on.

How many new fans of Spider-Man have come into the fold in the years since OMD and not cared a whit about OMD? The vast, vast majority of them, surely.

A small pocket of fans will continue to debate it while the larger fandom has moved past it, if they even cared to begin with.

[Prof. Warren]

I know I grew up enjoying that i could relate with Pete, he went to school, I went to school. We had dating ups and downs. We both graduated. We both got jobs. I related as he grew per say. We both got married.

Bam, devil deal.

I can honestly say I'd never give MY wife up for my elderly aunt (whom I also love and she has lived a full life.) Seems like a dastardly thing to do as I sit here on the deck typing and her near me and my dog. Especially wouldn't throw my wife away in a devil deal of all things.

While I'm still reading, enjoying it here and there, I feel like I'm still reading an Ongoing Post OMD Direction. Several of my friends stopped reading entirely since OMD. It definitely made me start reading more DC.

To make a long story short, an ongoing devil deal is 100x more baggage than a divorce. Everyone reading Spiderman can relate to a divorce at any age, whether it is you yourself who had one or your parents. Again, they didn't need to show divorce papers filing stories but it would be way better than a devil deal where evil won period and Pete was a putz who threw his marriage under the bus. I can't relate to that as it makes view Pete as evil. Even Spawn faught the devil until he got his wife back, no matter what it took thru hell literally. That is love. Pete rolled over for the devil and no closure. He started dating again when he is sorta techincally still married except for devil deal divorce magic that they can't remember it except for a small part of his forever tormented soul will remember, the story stated. That's it, the end. That to me is horrible baggage and doesn't look heroic to me at all. This ongoing premise took the direction way more off the rails than a divorce would, but that is just my opinion.

Most people don't care.

I'm 49 (and married fifteen years, with a child). OMD or no, Peter at this point would still be a much younger guy than I've grown into.

If he were married, he'd be a married man in his late 20s and would forever stay as such and therefore would not have many of the life experiences that a married (or single) man has as they grow into middle age.

Peter staying "relatable" to me as I get older is a non-issue.

OMD was a four issue series ten years ago. If it stuck in your craw that much, that's up to you.

When I'm reading new issues, I never think about it. The only time it comes up is when fans cry about it on message boards.

[farmernudie]

Most people don't care.


OMD was a four issue series ten years ago. If it stuck in your craw that much, that's up to you.

I don't know who most people are.

I don't think there is a scientific way to prove it, either side of this view. I see tons of people on some forums still against it, some in the middle and some who don't care and love post-OMD. There are many who don't post their opinion anywhere. All views are fine with me. I was just sharing mine. Nothing is stuck in my craw, just sharing my views on a message board the same as you are.

[Miles To Go]

The only time it comes up is when fans cry about it on message boards.

And podcasts

And references in Spider-Man/Deadpool

And whenever Tom King feels like throwing shade at it in solicitations.

Who are you fooling?

[boots]

Nothing wrong with suggesting an improvement.

All kidding aside, I wouldn't "fire" them, I'd just put them on books that benefit from their philosophies, Spider-Man shouldn't be one of them. Ever.

as relatively neutral as i am on the topic, idk if “spider-marriage: yah or nah” should really be the deciding factor