DC Editor Brian Cunningham remembers Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21

[Celgress]

That is absolutely not what happened. Peter guilt trips Mary Jane into making the deal. Instead of owning up to Peter's mistakes, Marvel's attitude has been to blame the woman, which is incredibly unhealthy and perpetrates absolutely terrible things about the relationships that exist between men and women.

I can testify this is indeed a perception amongst the general public. On several occasions non-comic book reading friends have said - "Didn't Mary Jane sell her and Spider-Man's marriage to the Devil or something similar?" I say not quite and explain what happened in story as well as telling them to search for OMD on the Internet for a more complete explanation.

[Prof. Warren]

I also never heard about that exact quote or a paraphrase of it until yesterday. Which is why I was so taken aback. If accurate, shame on Quesada as he should know better than to publically say something so asinine.

I feel like he didn't. I've never read or heard that quote before.

[Frontier]

It'd be better - and I have read quotes from him to this effect - to just say that having a divorced Peter Parker only compounds the problem of marriage making Peter too old. Having Peter permanently being identified as a divorced dude just doesn't work and immediately ages him in a way that even marriage didn't. The magical solution of wiping away the marriage is infinitely preferable to having him go through a divorce.

I don't see how a divorce makes Peter seem old considering the rate of divorce in America and that it stretches across multiple age ranges.

I mean, Harry's divorced and he's as old as Peter is, but he doesn't suddenly seem middle-aged.

But, really, what doesn't make Peter seem old these days?

As for divorce being seen as worse than making a deal with the devil (or a devil stand-in), the difference would obviously be that one is a real life situation and the other is strictly fantasy.

I think the obvious difference would be that one is a legal separation while the other is...y'know, making a deal with the devil.

You could teach kids all day that making a deal with the devil is ok and no actual deals with the devil will ever take place.

Who would try and teach kids that it's okay to make a deal with the devil ?

And, of course, you could look at the actual story of OMD and say that it's technically MJ, not Peter, that makes the deal and that the deal itself isn't seen as a good thing necessarily but a self-sacrificing gesture that comes with a terrible price so it's definitely not portraying the deal in a positive light but haven't we rehashed OMD enough?

This is a thread about opinions on the marriage so it's reasonable to expect OMD to come up.

[Inversed]

I don't know what Quesada's actual quote was. If it's that, it's awfully silly. I feel like he didn't put it in quite those words but anyhow...

It'd be better - and I have read quotes from him to this effect - to just say that having a divorced Peter Parker only compounds the problem of marriage making Peter too old. Having Peter permanently being identified as a divorced dude just doesn't work and immediately ages him in a way that even marriage didn't. The magical solution of wiping away the marriage is infinitely preferable to having him go through a divorce.

As for divorce being seen as worse than making a deal with the devil (or a devil stand-in), the difference would obviously be that one is a real life situation and the other is strictly fantasy.

You could teach kids all day that making a deal with the devil is ok and no actual deals with the devil will ever take place.

And, of course, you could look at the actual story of OMD and say that it's technically MJ, not Peter, that makes the deal and that the deal itself isn't seen as a good thing necessarily but a self-sacrificing gesture that comes with a terrible price so it's definitely not portraying the deal in a positive light but haven't we rehashed OMD enough?

I remember asking somewhere why they didn't just get them divorced, and someone told me he had said he didn't want to send a message that divorce was okay to do, and I had paraphrased it there. He didn't exactly say he didn't want to teach kids divorce was okay, but everything I did find seemed to show he didn't want to deal with it.

This was a quote I found back in early 2008 right after the story came out:
"[If they were to divorce then it means] they gave up on their love, that their life in love together was so awful, so stressful, so unfulfilling that they had to raise a red flag and walk away from it. They quit on their marriage and even more tragic, (they) quit on each other. Instead, we had them make a deal with the devil. 'Cause that isn't as bad. Peter and MJ didn't quit on their love, they sacrificed it to save a life, that to me is a pretty heroic story."

The problem here is that it still screams to me like them wanting to have their cake and eat it too. You can't say "They could never get divorced because of how much they truly loved each other" but then go "Oh but they still broke up anyway." Isn't that them giving up on their love either way? It's the contradictions that annoy me personally.

And the way I see it, the difference between ragging about OMD in comparison to something like Sins Past, the latter was a hated story that was resolved by the end of it and has been practically forgotten by the rest of the canon, while the former is a hated story that ended on a cliffhanger and is referenced many many times, so I do think it is fair that people would still be bringing it up or wishing for some resolution. That said, I think it's also important to not completely disregard everything else that has come afterward because of it. You can love everything that has come out since then, while still criticizing the story.

[Miles To Go]

The problem here is that it still screams to me like them wanting to have their cake and eat it too. You can't say "They could never get divorced because of how much they truly loved each other" but then go "Oh but they still broke up anyway." Isn't that them giving up on their love either way? It's the contradictions that annoy me personally.

Yes, but if you read the story, particularly the promise MJ makes to Peter at the end, it's easier to swallow because it's obvious they break up because of a spell, and there's always the hope that they will overcome the spell.

It's just like how there's no closure to the riddle of what happened to Peter and MJ's daughter...was she stillborn or is she still held captive somewhere? So long as the hope remains alive, the long-term investment in the ongoing story remains.

[Rincewind]

I remember asking somewhere why they didn't just get them divorced, and someone told me he had said he didn't want to send a message that divorce was okay to do, and I had paraphrased it there. He didn't exactly say he didn't want to teach kids divorce was okay, but everything I did find seemed to show he didn't want to deal with it.

This was a quote I found back in early 2008 right after the story came out:
"[If they were to divorce then it means] they gave up on their love, that their life in love together was so awful, so stressful, so unfulfilling that they had to raise a red flag and walk away from it. They quit on their marriage and even more tragic, (they) quit on each other. Instead, we had them make a deal with the devil. 'Cause that isn't as bad. Peter and MJ didn't quit on their love, they sacrificed it to save a life, that to me is a pretty heroic story."

The problem here is that it still screams to me like them wanting to have their cake and eat it too. You can't say "They could never get divorced because of how much they truly loved each other" but then go "Oh but they still broke up anyway." Isn't that them giving up on their love either way? It's the contradictions that annoy me personally.

And the way I see it, the difference between ragging about OMD in comparison to something like Sins Past, the latter was a hated story that was resolved by the end of it and has been practically forgotten by the rest of the canon, while the former is a hated story that ended on a cliffhanger and is referenced many many times, so I do think it is fair that people would still be bringing it up or wishing for some resolution. That said, I think it's also important to not completely disregard everything else that has come afterward because of it. You can love everything that has come out since then, while still criticizing the story.

That still seems like it's twisting what Quesada said. He is not saying that divorce is bad. He is explaining why it doesn't work as a narrative choice for Spider-Man. In the end, they wanted the status quo to be Peter as single never married and OMD was the quickest, least messy way to get there. You may not agree with it, but let's not demonize JQ with paraphrased out of context remarks.

[Kevinroc]

How does Peter guilt trip MJ? I don't believe that's what happens at all.

If anything, MJ making the deal shows her to be selfless in her actions and strong enough to make a huge sacrifice so her actions are not a negative on her.

That is absolutely what he does. When MJ asks if it's just Aunt May's time, Peter talks about how he couldn't live with the guilt if Aunt May dies because of what he did. MJ tells Peter not to put her in that position, and he says he isn't, but he absolutely does put her in that position. He had already said he couldn't live with himself, that he would break, if Aunt May died because of what he did.

They could have built some decent drama out of this. But instead it became an excuse to blame MJ for the deal. It's the woman's fault. The man did absolutely nothing wrong.

It's, speaking frankly, disgusting. It is absolutely what happened. And Marvel's been content just sweeping the whole thing under the rug.

I can testify this is indeed a perception amongst the general public. On several occasions non-comic book reading friends have said - "Didn't Mary Jane sell her and Spider-Man's marriage to the Devil or something similar?" I say not quite and explain what happened in story as well as telling them to search for OMD on the Internet for a more complete explanation.

It's real easy to just say "Peter guilt trips MJ into making the deal." Because that is exactly what happened. And Marvel trying to claim otherwise is insulting and sexist.

[Inversed]

That still seems like it's twisting what Quesada said. He is not saying that divorce is bad. He is explaining why it doesn't work as a narrative choice for Spider-Man. In the end, they wanted the status quo to be Peter as single never married and OMD was the quickest, least messy way to get there. You may not agree with it, but let's not demonize JQ with paraphrased out of context remarks.

You're right, that's my mistake. Sorry if I made it sound worse than what it was.

Yes, but if you read the story, particularly the promise MJ makes to Peter at the end, it's easier to swallow because it's obvious they break up because of a spell, and there's always the hope that they will overcome the spell.

It's just like how there's no closure to the riddle of what happened to Peter and MJ's daughter...was she stillborn or is she still held captive somewhere? So long as the hope remains alive, the long-term investment in the ongoing story remains.

I've just personally never liked that, and really the "try to have it both ways" mentality in general. They want people to move on, but also want to "keep the hope alive".

[Miles To Go]

OMD wasn't exactly the "least messy", it clouded over 20 years of stories and we still don't know whether or not certain stories remain canon as Quesada's personal belief was MJ's pregnancy didn't happen.

[David Walton]

There had to be an artist itching for a Spider-Man divorce comic just so he or she could homage ASM #50 with a "Mary Jane Watson-Parker No More!" cover where MJ leaves her ring behind in a trash can.

[Miles To Go]

There had to be an artist itching for a Spider-Man divorce comic just so he or she could homage ASM #50 with a "Mary Jane Watson-Parker No More!" cover where MJ leaves her ring behind in a trash can.

One of the OMIT issue covers had MJ walk away with her wedding dress in the trash can

[David Walton]

In hindsight, I totally agree that the marriage was rushed and ASM Annual #21 was pretty mediocre.

But the marriage is one of those situations where some writers, whether they wanted it to happen or not, made it work and sold fans on the idea for years to come. I love the marriage years! But they didn't have to win me over because I was always fine with Peter and MJ tying the knot.

I wonder if it's comparable to Jason Todd's death? In theory, I think it was a HORRIBLE idea. But the Red Hood storyline redeemed the concept in my opinion. Maybe KLH redeemed the marriage for fans who weren't sold on it yet. Or other stories that followed. The late 80s were a really good time for Spidey fans.

[Miles To Go]

In hindsight, I totally agree that the marriage was rushed and ASM Annual #21 was pretty mediocre.

I don't agree, I thought the marriage was well timed for where both characters were in their lives and the annual was a nice slice of life story.

[TheCape]

I don't agree, I thought the marriage was well timed for where both characters were in their lives and the annual was a nice slice of life story.

I think that in the emotional sense Peter and MJ were ready to give that step, but the story of that annual is really rushed and clumsy, althougth Micheline has say that basically nothing of his original idea ended appearing on it.

[TheCape]

I don't see how a divorce makes Peter seem old considering the rate of divorce in America and that it stretches across multiple age ranges.

I mean, Harry's divorced and he's as old as Peter is, but he doesn't suddenly seem middle-aged.

But, really, what doesn't make Peter seem old these days?

I think the obvious difference would be that one is a legal separation while the other is...y'know, making a deal with the devil.

Who would try and teach kids that it's okay to make a deal with the devil ?

This is a thread about opinions on the marriage so it's reasonable to expect OMD to come up.

Pff... as it Marvel left Peter age anyway, he as a teenage daughter in an AU title and he still looks in his late 20s and early 30s lol