Is Peter smater than Otto?

[blackspidey2099]

Where did you get this update from and please post the Spider-man-Peter version for comparison.

It was from the Avengers NOW! handbook Marvel released a couple years back. I don't think they have released any Handbooks of Peter in over 10 years though, so there aren't any updated stats for Peter. The super-genius thing was from Peter Parker: Spectacular Spider-Man Vol. 2 #1 and the IQ was from Amazing Spider-Man #588. And Marvel's official rankings say that a Level 6 in intelligence is reserved for "super-genius level intelligence", so since Peter is a super-genius he should have a Level 6.

[wleakr]

It was from the Avengers NOW! handbook Marvel released a couple years back. I don't think they have released any Handbooks of Peter in over 10 years though, so there aren't any updated stats for Peter. The super-genius thing was from Peter Parker: Spectacular Spider-Man Vol. 2 #1 and the IQ was from Amazing Spider-Man #588. And Marvel's official rankings say that a Level 6 in intelligence is reserved for "super-genius level intelligence", so since Peter is a super-genius he should have a Level 6.

Ok, so every grid I can find for Peter places him a 4. The update you provided places Otto at 5 (5 > 4). Further, since this update is of him as Spider-man, maybe he actually loss some intelligence merging his brain with Peter, to come down a notch...lol!

Yes, that is what Marvel says a Level 6 is but they have no stats that show Peter is a 6. What you think it should be vs what it actually is are not equal.

[blackspidey2099]

Ok, so every grid I can find for Peter places him a 4. The update you provided places Otto at 5 (5 > 4). Further, since this update is of him as Spider-man, maybe he actually loss some intelligence merging his brain with Peter, to come down a notch...lol!

Yes, that is what Marvel says a Level 6 is but they have no stats that show Peter is a 6. What you think it should be vs what it actually is are not equal.

I mean they literally confirmed Peter is a super-genius in an actual comic. Comics are much more reliable than the handbooks LOL, since the handbooks are made by people who read a bunch of comics and then make up whatever number they think best fits. Maybe the person who wrote the handbook entries was an Otto fanboy.... Anyways, Doc Ock is clearly not a super-genius, while Peter is. So it's a moot point. Peter is smarter.

Based on the actual events which have happened in the comics, I've shown like 6 instances of Peter being explicitly smarter than Doc Ock. Can you even show one where Ock is smarter?

[Tony Stark]

I think Otto is smarter, but Peter is better at what he knows and is pretty damn smart well. I just think Otto used Peter's powers better than Peter did.

[wleakr]

I mean they literally confirmed Peter is a super-genius in an actual comic. Comics are much more reliable than the handbooks LOL, since the handbooks are made by people who read a bunch of comics and then make up whatever number they think best fits. Maybe the person who wrote the handbook entries was an Otto fanboy.... Anyways, Doc Ock is clearly not a super-genius, while Peter is. So it's a moot point. Peter is smarter.

Based on the actual events which have happened in the comics, I've shown like 6 instances of Peter being explicitly smarter than Doc Ock. Can you even show one where Ock is smarter?

A lot of your examples involve Peter's time with Horizon. During this time, he did some highly intelligent things as he is in position to study and apply his craft consistently. This was and is not always the case. Otto is always doing this. For the longest time, Peter couldn't even complete grad studies. Ock, as Peter, got a PhD.

This is kinda like Flash vs Superman. You have to concede Flash is a touch faster, otherwise what's the point in having the character if Superman out classes him in that area.

Ock is not truly super-powered. Accident gave him mental control of tech arms, but his actual body is just that of a regular, even below average physical shape. To not allow Otto a leg up in intellect makes him too far below Spider-man to even fight. That ability is what made the Superior arc so compelling and what makes him a top tier Spidey villain. If Spider-man is going to be faster, stronger AND smarter than the guy (plus a spider sense to avoid his attacks), what's the point of the character?

[Frontier]

It depends on the writer/story.

As a whole I think Peter is more creative/clever then Ock by an inch.

[blackspidey2099]

A lot of your examples involve Peter's time with Horizon. During this time, he did some highly intelligent things as he is in position to study and apply his craft consistently. This was and is not always the case. Otto is always doing this. For the longest time, Peter couldn't even complete grad studies. Ock, as Peter, got a PhD.

Well, obviously Peter actually needs resources to be able to build and create impressive things. I think it is unfair to compare Doc Ock, who literally has all the resources he could ever need due to his criminal activities, to a Peter who could barely afford rent, let alone scientific equipment. As we can see, when Peter does have access to equipment and funding, his achievements are much greater than Doc Ock's, proving that he is the superior intellect.

This is kinda like Flash vs Superman. You have to concede Flash is a touch faster, otherwise what's the point in having the character if Superman out classes him in that area.

Ock is not truly super-powered. Accident gave him mental control of tech arms, but his actual body is just that of a regular, even below average physical shape. To not allow Otto a leg up in intellect makes him too far below Spider-man to even fight. That ability is what made the Superior arc so compelling and what makes him a top tier Spidey villain. If Spider-man is going to be faster, stronger AND smarter than the guy (plus a spider sense to avoid his attacks), what's the point of the character?

I honestly think this argument is extremely flawed. People don't concede that Flash is much faster because that's the only point of his character (in fact, Superman is quicker than other speedsters whose only point is speed, for example like Max Mercury) - they do so because the Flash has much, much better speed feats than Superman does. Basically, Flash has the showings to prove he is faster. In this instance, Doc Ock does not have any showings to prove he is quicker - and in fact, Peter has multiple showings proving that he is the smarter one.

I also disagree that not allowing Otto a leg up in intellect makes him too far below to even fight. Peter is faster, stronger, and smarter than many of his villains, like Shocker, or Green Goblin, or Hobgoblin, or like Hammerhead. The reason why they still have such great battles is because of Peter's morality and principles (as well as his self-sabotaging tendency) which make him a less effective combatant. In terms of Doc Ock specifically, his mechanical arms are actually much stronger and more durable than Peter himself (as long as Peter isn't wearing armor that is). There's also the fact that Peter rarely goes out hunting for his villains, so ends up being surprised and ambushed by villains (like Doc Ock) who have spent months planning for their encounter.

Finally, let's look at this more generally. What's the point of human geniuses like Tony Stark, Hank Pym, T'Challa, etc. when Reed Richards is much smarter at every singe possible field and also much stronger, quicker, etc. due to his powers? Or even the fact that guys like Bruce Banner, Peter Parker, Adam Brashear, Beast, etc all have the same level of intelligence but also have powers as well. Does that make the human geniuses useless? I don't think so.

[bob.schoonover]

I think it's not a question of one being smarter than the other, but just smarter in different ways (and I don't mean that in an emotional intelligence way, although there are big differences there, too). Peter is intuitively brilliant - his improvisatory skills when building a device to thwart a villain are essentially unparalleled, but he lacks the training and rigor that Otto has. Otto plans out these big schemes with ridiculous devices - he prepares, he designs, he plans for contingencies (not all of them, of course, but reasonable ones). The way in which Parker Industries collapsed were mildly contrived, but also in keeping with the fact that Peter flies by the seat of his pants and hopes to outsmart his way through a tough situation, whereas Otto put in backdoors ahead of time in the event that he needed them (also, Peter never went looking for the very likely Otto-induced issues in the Parker Industries computer systems).

Functionally, Peter's improvisatory skills will eventually defeat Otto's preparation and rigor because, well, Spidey's the hero, so that might make him smarter, but it's really just about having different types of intelligence.

[wleakr]

Well, obviously Peter actually needs resources to be able to build and create impressive things. I think it is unfair to compare Doc Ock, who literally has all the resources he could ever need due to his criminal activities, to a Peter who could barely afford rent, let alone scientific equipment. As we can see, when Peter does have access to equipment and funding, his achievements are much greater than Doc Ock's, proving that he is the superior intellect.



I honestly think this argument is extremely flawed. People don't concede that Flash is much faster because that's the only point of his character (in fact, Superman is quicker than other speedsters whose only point is speed, for example like Max Mercury) - they do so because the Flash has much, much better speed feats than Superman does. Basically, Flash has the showings to prove he is faster. In this instance, Doc Ock does not have any showings to prove he is quicker - and in fact, Peter has multiple showings proving that he is the smarter one.

I also disagree that not allowing Otto a leg up in intellect makes him too far below to even fight. Peter is faster, stronger, and smarter than many of his villains, like Shocker, or Green Goblin, or Hobgoblin, or like Hammerhead. The reason why they still have such great battles is because of Peter's morality and principles (as well as his self-sabotaging tendency) which make him a less effective combatant. In terms of Doc Ock specifically, his mechanical arms are actually much stronger and more durable than Peter himself (as long as Peter isn't wearing armor that is). There's also the fact that Peter rarely goes out hunting for his villains, so ends up being surprised and ambushed by villains (like Doc Ock) who have spent months planning for their encounter.

Finally, let's look at this more generally. What's the point of human geniuses like Tony Stark, Hank Pym, T'Challa, etc. when Reed Richards is much smarter at every singe possible field and also much stronger, quicker, etc. due to his powers? Or even the fact that guys like Bruce Banner, Peter Parker, Adam Brashear, Beast, etc all have the same level of intelligence but also have powers as well. Does that make the human geniuses useless? I don't think so.

No one is stating that Peter isn't smart and capable, but he's not Otto smart.

The Flash character is hard to write, particularly in the presence of Superman. In comics, he's been given those "speed feats" to demonstrate he is a needed asset. Even with that, there are still those who wonder why have him on the same team with Superman, and as a result he is often relegated as a comedy relief character in media outside of comics.

All of those villains you mentioned has some type of leg up in some way on Spider-man that makes them worthy of fighting. Long-range powers (Shocker), strength/speed (Goblin serum). I'll give you Hammerhead; Spider-man outclasses him in every way...it's a cute visual, but HH is not worth fighting, which is probably why we rarely see the guy, and if we do, he's not alone.

Yes, the tech arms are stronger than Spider-man, but they have to connect. His spider sense evens the playing field and the only reason it's not completely tilted on Spider-man's side is due to there being 4 arms to contend with. If Otto can't provide a mental challenge, his character has no point, unless they give him some type of power boost.

I'm not speaking on all the Marvel universe geniuses...for one, they are all on the same side (give or take) and most are experts in a certain area(s), which makes them unique.

They are both smart...there is not a huge gulf separating them intellectually. But Otto is smarter.

[wleakr]

I think it's not a question of one being smarter than the other, but just smarter in different ways (and I don't mean that in an emotional intelligence way, although there are big differences there, too). Peter is intuitively brilliant - his improvisatory skills when building a device to thwart a villain are essentially unparalleled, but he lacks the training and rigor that Otto has. Otto plans out these big schemes with ridiculous devices - he prepares, he designs, he plans for contingencies (not all of them, of course, but reasonable ones). The way in which Parker Industries collapsed were mildly contrived, but also in keeping with the fact that Peter flies by the seat of his pants and hopes to outsmart his way through a tough situation, whereas Otto put in backdoors ahead of time in the event that he needed them (also, Peter never went looking for the very likely Otto-induced issues in the Parker Industries computer systems).

Functionally, Peter's improvisatory skills will eventually defeat Otto's preparation and rigor because, well, Spidey's the hero, so that might make him smarter, but it's really just about having different types of intelligence.

Well stated...this is how I view it.

[blackspidey2099]

No one is stating that Peter isn't smart and capable, but he's not Otto smart.

Sigh... Do you have any proof for this beyond some outdated and unreliable handbooks? According to those handbooks, Spidey can only lift 10 tons, and we all know how untrue that is. I even asked you to provide some of Otto's best intelligence feats so we can compare, but you never did.

The Flash character is hard to write, particularly in the presence of Superman. In comics, he's been given those "speed feats" to demonstrate he is a needed asset. Even with that, there are still those who wonder why have him on the same team with Superman, and as a result he is often relegated as a comedy relief character in media outside of comics.

Do you read Flash comics? Because I do. Flash is so fast that he is honestly more OP than Superman. He can go multiple times the speed of light casually, and can punch with the force of an entire star.

All of those villains you mentioned has some type of leg up in some way on Spider-man that makes them worthy of fighting. Long-range powers (Shocker),

Spidey has long range attacks as well (webs).

strength/speed (Goblin serum).

Peter is stronger and quicker.

I'll give you Hammerhead; Spider-man outclasses him in every way...it's a cute visual, but HH is not worth fighting, which is probably why we rarely see the guy, and if we do, he's not alone.

Okay fine. What about Kraven, Hobgoblin, Mysterio, Chameleon, Vulture, etc.?

Yes, the tech arms are stronger than Spider-man, but they have to connect. His spider sense evens the playing field and the only reason it's not completely tilted on Spider-man's side is due to there being 4 arms to contend with. If Otto can't provide a mental challenge, his character has no point, unless they give him some type of power boost.

Otto can provide a mental challenge, but it is one that Peter can always overcome due to his own superior intellect. Anyways, the challenge from fighting Ock is how he takes all that time prepare, while Spidey is completely unprepared for the confrontation.

I'm not speaking on all the Marvel universe geniuses...for one, they are all on the same side (give or take) and most are experts in a certain area(s), which makes them unique.

Okay fine, what's the point of Tony Stark having villains like Zeke Stane when Tony is smarter? It's the exact same situation.

They are both smart...there is not a huge gulf separating them intellectually. But Otto is smarter.

Yeah, no. So far, all you've done is repeat that Otto is smarter again and again without providing any concrete evidence of that. Your only argument is that Otto must be smarter because if he isn't there isn't a point of him being a villain. Unless you can provide proof of Ock actually building or inventing something impressive, Peter is significantly smarter. And that's that.

[The Negative Zone]

When Peter applies himself he can be an genius close to the general big brains of the Marvel universe, however he doesn't do that often.

[Master Planner]

[


Besides, guys like Reed Richards and Hank Pym say Peter is as smart as they are (in fact, Reed Richards is envious of Spider-Man's expertise in biology and calls Peter "the biology guy"). When was the last time Doc Ock was even compared to people that smart?

Byrne's Fantastic Four run.Reed,Banner,Morbius and Langkowski all agreed that Otto is the top scientist in Radiation field.You have the smartest man on earth and 3 of the best scientists in radiation all agreeing that Otto is the absolute best in his field.

[Tuck]

It depends on the writer/story.

Yup.

Also:

Logical Mathematical: This area has to do with logic, reasoning and critical thinking. This is the type of intelligence IQ tests focus on.

Spatial: This area deals with spatial judgment and the ability to visualize with the mind's eye. People having this ability tend to be architects and designers.

Linguistic: This area focuses on a person's ability to display a facility with language. People with high linguistic intelligence tend to be writers and story tellers.

Bodily-kinesthetic: This intelligence deals with a person's control over his/her body. They tend to have a good sense of timing and a clear sense of a goal of a physical action and learn more effectively through muscular movement. They tend to be actors, dancers, and athletes.

Musical: This area focuses on sensitivity to rhythms, tones and musical notes. People with high musical intelligence are usually (not surprisingly) musicians, including singers, songwriters and composers.

Interpersonal: People with high interpersonal intelligence tend to learn best through interaction and communication. They are usually salespeople, social workers, politicians and teachers.

Intrapersonal: People with high intrapersonal intelligence are more introspective and reflective. They are usually novelists and philosophers.

[darthblinx]

Peter > Otto

Those handbooks have no editorial say, they're writers who read character's history and added their own fun (but fake) bar graphs with power stats. Sorry, those don't count.

Besides Otto flat out conceding in full unabashed honesty that Peter is his better, there's other examples. Somebody already brought up the age difference, and that matters more than people are giving it credit. A 15 yr old public HS student straight up outwitted an assumingly 40 yr old with several advanced degrees in his field.

Plus in their later years, as others have noted, Otto steals a lot from that "worthless arachnid" (not that Peter hasn't done like, but the hypocrisy needs pointed out). Isn't he currently parading around in a body he stole from Peter's clone composed of half of Pete's genetics?

Obviously Otto puts the hours in... and fails, and fails, and fails, and fails, and fails, and fails like the absolute failure he is. Because no matter how hard he works against Peter, he'll always come up short and it's nearly always due to intelligence.