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  1. #1
    homo superior gifted's Avatar
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    Default X-Men: Expectation vs. Reality - A Study on Character

    Here, on the infamous X-Boards of CBR, we're known for throwing plenty of shade-- shade at each other, at fictional characters, and at creative teams. Very often, I see fans criticizing a writer's interpretation of a character. Whether it's an opinion mutually shared by the majority of fans or an opinion shared by... only you.

    Sometimes, we poke at plot developments and decide whether it's canon or not. However, we all have to realize if it's published, it's unfortunately canon. Which means that there will be fans of the same characters who disagree on certain things. But we still have to respect each others' opinions and be appreciative that your favorite character has a fanbase larger than just you.

    In this thread, I'd like you to detail a character, or characters, you think have been written out-of-character or have been mistreated and why, but also include what your "correct" interpretation of that character is. I expect posts that are less argumentative with each other and more about opinions of your own volition (if you really do have an issue with someone's post, slide into their DM).
    I like guys, comics, and traveling. // follow me @ itsnickmen
    “Sure, this will probably end up being another in a long line of emotionally crippling misadventures,
    but let's try to have some fun along the way.”
    ― Brian K. Vaughan, Y: The Last Man


  2. #2

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    This will definitely not get messy....
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Correct Emma Frost: By Soule on IvX with her best costume, by Bunn on the arc where she tried to brainwash and rape Scott.
    /jk

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    This will definitely not get messy....
    Yeah. This could get ugly. I'm at work now, but the 2 characters I'll talk about when I get off is Deadpool & Sabretooth, who I think have been utterly messed up by some writers. Hell, I already made a tumblr blog post on why I felt Greg Pak ruined Sabertooth. A link.
    http://fangirl-bakery.tumblr.com/pos...retooth-review

  5. #5
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Gonna go with the big one:

    Storm has been written almost consistently awfully for the better part of the last decade and before. It started with Civil War, pairing Ororo off with T'challa - which is fine in theory but when executed, Ororo was relegated to a character that played second fiddle to Black Panther. There was a time that she was the leader of the X-Men and now she was just this very pretty, very powerful prop to make a man look better. That stands against everything that Ororo was once for. Similarly, I don't think that they ever should have re-embraced the Goddess angle - but they have and they've made it incredibly real, as much as I wish that they hadn't. This is a character who once embraced the loss of her powers and gaining her humanity and was better for it, in an era that is continuously revisited even if not in it's entirety. Something about Storm being a goddess makes her character seem even more unapproachable and distant than she already risked being, unfortunately.

    ... and despite being a goddess it's become clear that the majority of writers don't know what to do with her, even if they can capture her voice. She's just joined X-Men Red so I'm giving Tom Taylor a pass, but then there's someone like Marc Guggenheim, who had her passed out every other issue of his book until he decided that he had to give her a Mjolnir-esque hammer (which, to be fair, was something Claremont did back in the day but also back in a much more interesting way) to make her powerful and interesting, and that's just so very negligent. And then there is Ta-Nehisi Coates, who nails Ororo's voice and makes her relationship with T'Challa far more balanced, but then he has to throw in the goddess angle and muck it all up.

    I really wish that I could blame all this on a Stormbot, and yet... I can't.

    To put it simply I'd remove the goddess angle entirely, and maybe even make Storm powerless for a while to bring her back down to her roots. This is a character that once fought both Callisto and Marrow hand to hand and won, even ripping out the heart of Marrow to prove a point because she was so far gone. Storm needs to be human. She needs to be a character that yes, you can be in awe of and be inspired by, but largely one that you can associate yourself with. There's no reason she has to stop seeing T'Challa, though I'd expect her character not to just be knocked down again when she's no longer a goddess and is, instead, human. And keep her with the X-Men. She's not a teacher, she's a soldier, but a compassionate one. She needs to lead again, but maybe not the whole school.
    Last edited by Harpsikord; 06-12-2018 at 11:46 AM.

    "I've never felt the world so angry. So divided. I can hear you. I can hear your pain. Your fear. Your anxiety. I want to help. I don't know how, but I'll learn." - X-Men Red #1(2018)

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Correct Wolverine: The guy that tries to be a better man by fighting against his worst impulses, mainly his animal side, who did some questionable things out of need because no one else was willing to and likes to teacht kids and teenagers how to defend from themselves (basically he likes people with backbone and likes to give then the tools to be less of a victim). Also he got over his feelings for Jean since the 90s.

    Bad Wolverine: War criminal bastard that killed a bunch of innocent people and some scientifics to cover his own ass, hypocrite trying to be the new "Xavier" when he has no right to call other people out of their dubious moral actions. Whatever Loeb was doing with the Lupines and Romulus.
    Last edited by TheCape; 06-12-2018 at 05:37 PM.

  7. #7
    homo superior gifted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    This will definitely not get messy....
    Well, I really hope everyone cooperates and plays nice! I wanted a thread where people can discuss their opinions without fear of being judged and having to defend themselves. As I said, if you really do feel the need to voice a dissenting opinion with someone, PMing is always an option!! Haha.

    I created this thread because I personally always see people saying writers don't understand characters, but I rarely get to see the "why" behind those posts.
    I like guys, comics, and traveling. // follow me @ itsnickmen
    “Sure, this will probably end up being another in a long line of emotionally crippling misadventures,
    but let's try to have some fun along the way.”
    ― Brian K. Vaughan, Y: The Last Man


  8. #8
    The Queen of Maggots Izanami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gifted View Post
    Well, I really hope everyone cooperates and plays nice! I wanted a thread where people can discuss their opinions without fear of being judged and having to defend themselves. As I said, if you really do feel the need to voice a dissenting opinion with someone, PMing is always an option!! Haha.

    I created this thread because I personally always see people saying writers don't understand characters, but I rarely get to see the "why" behind those posts.
    Good Luck, I might just lurk here in the distance. Hope this thread lasts long enough.
    I come when there's something to take but I never give anything back.
    I know what you want. But it is not here. It's gone and it will never ever come again...

  9. #9

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    Storm

    Correct: Worldly, wise-beyond-her-years, tactically brilliant(and sneaky), Ororo is a loving, compassionate friend and fierce protector. She fights for those who can not fight for themselves, and sufficiently provoked, will smite any who stands in her way, though she would rather be watering her plants, sunbathing, or dancing. Her extremely powerful connection to the forces of nature have always made her a goddess, not to mention her enrapturing presence and jaw dropping beauty. She does have spiritual and magical connections beyond her x-gene, but it is largely mysterious and bears further exploration. Her desire to be wild and roam free is often at odds with her role as leader of the X-Men strikeforce (but not the school administrator), but an occasional night out on the town, or excursion to some untamed wilderness, lets her refocus on the mission, which is to ease the suffering of all life on earth, human, mutant, or otherwise(including animals, plants, the environment itself). And one day she may yet expand her horizons, to the stars and the Great Mystery beyond.

    Incorrect: A mousy schoolmarm who is unsure of herself, dependent on Wolverine/Black Panther/Cyclops/Prof. X/Jean/Kitty/etc; she struggles to aim her lightning bolts and is often found knocked unconscious for no reason at all. She is unable to effect a Cloud, and would rather hide in Limbo than raise a hand to the Inhumans. I blame principally the Fox-Men films(both for their piss poor representations and the fact that the movie rights hampers the character in other mediums), and also Hudlin for derailing her just as her XSE had gained global authority. She's been crap for a solid decade and more, outside of a few shimmers here or there. So sad to see.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  10. #10
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Storm

    Correct: Worldly, wise-beyond-her-years, tactically brilliant(and sneaky), Ororo is a loving, compassionate friend and fierce protector. She fights for those who can not fight for themselves, and sufficiently provoked, will smite any who stands in her way, though she would rather be watering her plants, sunbathing, or dancing. Her extremely powerful connection to the forces of nature have always made her a goddess, not to mention her enrapturing presence and jaw dropping beauty. She does have spiritual and magical connections beyond her x-gene, but it is largely mysterious and bears further exploration. Her desire to be wild and roam free is often at odds with her role as leader of the X-Men strikeforce (but not the school administrator), but an occasional night out on the town, or excursion to some untamed wilderness, lets her refocus on the mission, which is to ease the suffering of all life on earth, human, mutant, or otherwise(including animals, plants, the environment itself). And one day she may yet expand her horizons, to the stars and the Great Mystery beyond.

    Incorrect: A mousy schoolmarm who is unsure of herself, dependent on Wolverine/Black Panther/Cyclops/Prof. X/Jean/Kitty/etc; she struggles to aim her lightning bolts and is often found knocked unconscious for no reason at all. She is unable to effect a Cloud, and would rather hide in Limbo than raise a hand to the Inhumans. I blame principally the Fox-Men films(both for their piss poor representations and the fact that the movie rights hampers the character in other mediums), and also Hudlin for derailing her just as her XSE had gained global authority. She's been crap for a solid decade and more, outside of a few shimmers here or there. So sad to see.
    Yasssss!!!

    "I've never felt the world so angry. So divided. I can hear you. I can hear your pain. Your fear. Your anxiety. I want to help. I don't know how, but I'll learn." - X-Men Red #1(2018)

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    Beast: bring the fun and charismatic scientist back and go away with the Beast hypocrite. Criticizing Scott for his actions but allying himself with the Illuminattis to blow planets or risk the timeline for selfish and personal reasons does not make any sense to the character.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Finally home for a longish work day. Now

    Deadpool.
    I think the correct version is a dark gritty unhinged character with a quick wit. When he first came on the scene, he had the same mouth, but he was notable crazier and more sadistic. He had his moments, but he was a terrible person. He stalked & beat Vanessa, and later brags to Kane how she always comes back to him no matter how bad he treats her. Even when he fell for Siryn, he tried to do right by her, but was still a psycho. He also possessed genuine skills. He wrestled with his self loathing and didn't always treat his friends well. But again, he still had heart. I still recall him trying like Hell to save Ilaney, whom he didn't treat well at first, but felt guilty about later.

    THAT"S Deadpool for me. The incorrect version is the one we started to get with Daniel Way, who took most of the layering off of the character & made him some Peter Griffin comedy relief character. He introduced Pool-O-Vision, and had Deadpool just randomly bursting into fantasy and not being able to tell fiction from reality. I think POV usually involved fantasies about women. Then he introduced those random and horrible voice boxes that Deadpool talked to in his head. Way admitting he did that so he wouldn't have to add more characters for Deadpool to play off of. So basically, he admits he's a lazy writer. Even these days, some writers still go back to Way's approach of making Deadpool an annoying goof rather than a legit serious, tortured, unhinged, and dangerous individual. Duggan did well by Deadpool imo. But even he sometimes made Wade a bit too soft. I can't see Kelly's Deadpool from the 90's taking half the crap Duggan's Deadpool took off Shiklah.

    Sabretooth:
    Like Deadpool, he started off a serious character when Claremont brought him to the X-books. Sabretooth is tricky. If we go on correct, then he hasn't been correct since Claremont left. Because Claremont did not intend for Creed to be an irredeemable scumbag. The X-Men Forever version of him is what Claremont was gonna go for. But at the core, I believe Sabretooth should be dangerous, cunning, and effective. Clremont never showed him as a moron -least not to my knowledge. Then in the 90's, he was a serious & dangerous villain overall. He was treated as a high level threat that the X-Men locked up and tried to see to. When Xavier couldn't change him, he planned to have him shipped off and contained in permanent custody. When Creed escaped, all the X-Men went after him immediately, and he took them all out one by one -until he got to Jean. X-Factor outfitted him with a collar to keep his murdering in line. He escapes again and killed or critically injured the XF members. Then The Hound program found him useful but hard to control as well. He's made numerous enemies. Maverick went after him numerous times and lost every exchange except their last one. The girl whose mother he killed tried going after him, and destroying his mind by going into his head. Instead, she's the one who came out damn near a vegetable after being in there. Then there's him fooling Weapon X into thinking he was a loyal agent and outsmarting the organization at every turn.

    That's Sabretooth for me. A dangerous man who is not taken lightly. Not only is he powerful, but he's smart.

    The wrong Sabretooth is the one we've been getting the bulk of the last 15 years. The one who's a moron and sometimes lacks even common sense. The one who doesn't know how to hunt & can't make plans. The one Wolverine laughs in the face of, and treats like an annoyance, even asking Creed when he's ever been a threat to anyone. The Sabretooth who loses any fight he's ever in, and has had his ass kicked in 5 sec, by damn near every Wolverine we have. The Sabretooth we have now seems like a Mad Tv parody of the old one.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 06-12-2018 at 05:48 PM.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Finally home for a longish work day. Now

    Deadpool.
    I think the correct version is a dark gritty unhinged character with a quick wit. When he first came on the scene, he had the same mouth, but he was notable crazier and more sadistic. He had his moments, but he was a terrible person. He stalked & beat Vanessa, and later brags to Kane how she always comes back to him no matter how bad he treats her. Even when he fell for Siryn, he tried to do right by her, but was still a psycho. He also possessed genuine skills. He wrestled with his self loathing and didn't always treat his friends well. But again, he still had heart. I still recall him trying like Hell to save Ilaney, whom he didn't treat well at first, but felt guilty about later.

    THAT"S Deadpool for me. The incorrect version is the one we started to get with Daniel Way, who took most of the layering off of the character & made him some Peter Griffin comedy relief character. He introduced Pool-O-Vision, and had Deadpool just randomly bursting into fantasy and not being able to tell fiction from reality. I think POV usually involved fantasies about women. Then he introduced those random and horrible voice boxes that Deadpool talked to in his head. Way admitting he did that so he wouldn't have to add more characters for Deadpool to play off of. So basically, he admits he's a lazy writer. Even these days, some writers still go back to Way's approach of making Deadpool an annoying goof rather than a legit serious, torched, unhinged, and dangerous individual. Duggan did well by Deadpool imo. But even he sometimes made Wade a bit too soft. I can't see Kelly's Deadpool from the 90's taking half the crap Duggan's Deadpool took off Shiklah.

    Sabretooth:
    Like Deadpool, he started off a serious character when Claremont brought him to the X-books. Sabretooth is tricky. If we go on correct, then he hasn't been correct since Claremont left. Because Claremont did not intend for Creed to be an irredeemable scumbag. The X-Men Forever version of him is what Claremont was gonna go for. But at the core, I believe Sabretooth should be dangerous, cunning, and effective. Clremont never showed him as a moron -least not to my knowledge. Then in the 90's, he was a serious & dangerous villain overall. He was treated as a high level threat that the X-Men locked up and tried to see to. When Xavier couldn't change him, he planned to have him shipped off and contained in permanent custody. When Creed escaped, all the X-Men went after him immediately, and he took them all out one by one -until he got to Jean. X-Factor outfitted him with a collar to keep his murdering in line. He escapes again and killed or critically injured the XF members. Then The Hound program found him useful but hard to control as well. He's made numerous enemies. Maverick went after him numerous times and lost every exchange except their last one. The girl whose mother he killed tried going after him, and destroying his mind by going into his head. Instead, she's the one who came out damn near a vegetable after being in there. Then there's him fooling Weapon X into thinking he was a loyal agent and outsmarting the organization at every turn.

    That's Sabretooth for me. A dangerous man who is not taken lightly. Not only is he powerful, but he's smart.

    The wrong Sabretooth is the one we've been getting the bulk of the last 15 years. The one who's a moron and sometimes lacks even common sense. The one who doesn't know how to hunt & can't make plans. The one Wolverine laughs in the face of, and treats like an annoyance, even asking Creed when he's ever been a threat to anyone. The Sabretooth who loses any fight he's ever in, and has had his ass kicked in 5 sec, by damn near every Wolverine we have. The Sabretooth we have now seems like a Mad Tv parody of the old one.
    We need this Sabretooth

    RCO004.jpg

  14. #14
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Finally home for a longish work day. Now

    Deadpool.
    I think the correct version is a dark gritty unhinged character with a quick wit. When he first came on the scene, he had the same mouth, but he was notable crazier and more sadistic. He had his moments, but he was a terrible person. He stalked & beat Vanessa, and later brags to Kane how she always comes back to him no matter how bad he treats her. Even when he fell for Siryn, he tried to do right by her, but was still a psycho. He also possessed genuine skills. He wrestled with his self loathing and didn't always treat his friends well. But again, he still had heart. I still recall him trying like Hell to save Ilaney, whom he didn't treat well at first, but felt guilty about later.

    THAT"S Deadpool for me. The incorrect version is the one we started to get with Daniel Way, who took most of the layering off of the character & made him some Peter Griffin comedy relief character. He introduced Pool-O-Vision, and had Deadpool just randomly bursting into fantasy and not being able to tell fiction from reality. I think POV usually involved fantasies about women. Then he introduced those random and horrible voice boxes that Deadpool talked to in his head. Way admitting he did that so he wouldn't have to add more characters for Deadpool to play off of. So basically, he admits he's a lazy writer. Even these days, some writers still go back to Way's approach of making Deadpool an annoying goof rather than a legit serious, torched, unhinged, and dangerous individual. Duggan did well by Deadpool imo. But even he sometimes made Wade a bit too soft. I can't see Kelly's Deadpool from the 90's taking half the crap Duggan's Deadpool took off Shiklah.
    Hear, hear! I completely forgot about Pool-O-Vision. Tried so hard to block it from memory.

    Deadpool has become a "way out" for writers to ignore character continuity because they can just say he's crazy and write him however they want. I talked about how that really bugged me in another thread. Now, it's all about who can make the best joke in a Deadpool book. I liked the new #1 enough, but you could tell Skottie Young was trying so hard for laughs on every panel. Give me back the sadistic, wise cracking, dangerous merc who sometimes has a heart and shows a glimmer of hope for himself.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Also, adding to Sabretooth. He wasn't as one-note as he's been written for most of the last 15 years. The Sabretooth we got earlier on -pre-2004, was shown to have genuine character.

    We had stories & instances where he was shown to have a lot of insecurity & self-hatred. We saw his amicable side when we see him in a bar and playing poker while laughing and chatting with other villains. Looking at his apartment in Sabretooth in the Red Zone, he had tons of books on his shelf. He clearly reads. His apartment was actually very neat, and clean, He even had decorative plants sitting around. There was a scene in Back to Nature where he tries to talk a girl out of getting revenge. He warns her that going down that path has no escape. She calls him a hypocrite and points out that she knows what he is. He tells her he's already damned and he's not someone who matters, so she shouldn't be concerned about him.

    Mary Shelley Overdrive was one of the best Sabretooth stories. And Jolley got Creed in a way that most writers these days certainly do not. Some of his interview for Sabretooth's character.
    “To that end, what I’ve tried my best to do here is treat Creed as if he were as normal a guy as it’s possible for him to be. Now, I understand that that’s still not going to be all that normal, since it’s not your average joe who’s six and a half feet tall and equipped with fangs and unbreakable bones and claws and a mutant healing power. Victor Creed is a vicious, ruthless, gargantuanly dangerous killer – but I don’t believe he could ever be truly effective if he’s frequently a victim of blind rage and uncontrolled animal urges. So I’ve kept all the savage skill and ferocity, and attempted to portray him as extremely cunning and intelligent as well. I’d like to think that in this story Sabretooth is
    the most dangerous he’s ever been.
    He showed off Creed's intelligence & effectiveness, while also showing him as dangerous and adding depthful & human moments to him.

    Again, that's also Sabretooth for me. Even at his most vile in the 90's, he was shown to have loved his mother. He had some life outside of stalking Logan. Otherwise, only Bunn & Brisson have treated Creed like a multifaceted character. I have praised Brisson numerous times on twitter for his handling of Sabretooth in Iron Fist. He agrees Creed is not a one-note character,. He says he loved writing him and wants to write him again. And I wanna see that.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 06-12-2018 at 05:46 PM.

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