Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

[PunishedFire]

Well, you get top marks for mental gymnastics but bottom grades for ability to spin

[PunishedFire]

Translation - I can't think of anything intelligent to say.

I can't respond to your vapid post with anything meaningful except to repeat the points I already made.

If your entire argument is "You have to infer it!" to counter me referencing particular moments in the story that blow up your claims...well...there's not much I can do in the face of such a non-existent bit of logic.

You might as well be demanding I explain how magnets work without referencing electromagnetism because you believe them to be magic and can't be dissuaded otherwise.

Address the points I referenced and refute them or I have no need to respond.

[PunishedFire]

Lol, i'm not going to get into this discussion, but this comment make me laught.

At least I've brought levity to the situation

If nothing else, I'll mark that as a win. Glad I could give you a laugh (hell, even if it's at my expense!). I've been laughing almost the entire time I've been posting, so it's good to know I could share some of that joy.

[remydat]

I can't respond to your vapid post with anything meaningful except to repeat the points I already made.

If your entire argument is "You have to infer it!" to counter me referencing particular moments in the story that blow up your claims...well...there's not much I can do in the face of such a non-existent bit of logic.

You might as well be demanding I explain how magnets work without referencing electromagnetism because you believe them to be magic and can't be dissuaded otherwise.

Address the points I referenced and refute them or I have no need to respond.

Says the guy that claims mutants were violated despite not a single mutant saying so.

My inferences flow naturally from the story as it is entirely logical for Jean to think the sentinites are behind the Polish mutants running. We know the hate is being spread via tech and Jean flat out says "whoever is trying to spread that hate, that is how we stop them." This makes it perfectly obvious she knows Poland was the result of the same person behind the sentinites as she says this right after Jakub is told their leaders lied to them. It is like you need flashing lights that say hint hint.

It is also pretty obvious from the green mutant's posture right before Jean arrives that he intends to resist and we know the soldiers said resistance will be met with force. Thus it is obvious that if Jean does not intervene the Green mutant will be attacked for not surrendering.

Somehow though you miss all of this yet want people to believe the mutants were violated despite not a single thread of evidence that the mutants feel that way.

All your points have been addressed. It is you who wants to magically believe mutants were violated despite no one saying that. Even Kurt spoke of the soldiers not of the mutants so your argument has zero support.

[PunishedFire]

Says the guy that claims mutants were violated despite not a single mutant saying so.

Already been addressed. Multiple times.

This is also contingent on the writer himself realizing that mental intrusion is violating. Other writers have understood this. Some do not and use mind effects willy nilly. Jessica Jones should have set straight that tired old trope of "It's just your mind not your body lulz!"

My inferences flow naturally from the story as it is entirely logical for Jean to think the sentinites are behind the Polish mutants running. It is also pretty obvious from the green mutant's posture right before Jean arrives that he intends to resist and we know the soldiers said resistance will be met with force. Thus it is obvious that if Jean does not intervene the Green mutant will be attacked for not surrendering.

And, again, as many have pointed out, Jean had a myriad of options to keep those mutants safe that would not have escalated anything and would have kept people safe.

Finally Jean flat out says "whoever is trying to spread that hate, that is how we stop them." This makes it perfectly obvious she knows Poland was the result of the same person behind the sentinites as she says this right after Jakub is told their leaders lied to them.

She said "breed hate". She said she stops it with the truth.

Not by freeing people from mind control.

Not by getting to the bottom of who is controlling them (which is what she told David)

By showing the truth.

No mention of mind control, sentinites or a connection to David.

None.

You are wrong.

Somehow though you miss all of this yet want people to believe the mutants were violated despite not a single thread of evidence that the mutants feel that way.

Again, this is dependent on the writer recognizing a violation and deciding whether or not to do something about it in a story context.

Once more, as I've asked several times on this board in a couple situations, you do realize the X-men comics are fictional constructs crafted by a writer and not a chronicle of reality, right?

The story follows the desires of the writer. They can choose to ignore what they wish. They can write a story where people are casually murdered or robbed from and have no problem with it. That doesn't make it ethical.

All you points have been addressed. It is who who wants to magically believe mutants were violated despite no one saying that. Even Kurt spoke of the soldiers not of the mutants so your argument has zero support.

You didn't address Namor's threat nor Jean Grey's desire to use "truth" against mind-controlled people NOR Jean Grey's strategy to use "telepathic emotional hug-box" against mind-controlled people.

None of those things make sense if people are being mind-controlled by technology.

[PunishedFire]

I have an idea!

When a future issue comes out and the X-men become aware of the full scope of Cassandra Nova's plan and they are surprised that it's all connected back to David I'll come back here and tell you "told you so" and you can get super angry and block me instead of admitting you were wrong.

Deal?

[Park Slope Pixie]

It's been a talking point in other threads, very strong opinions either way.

In this issue Jean merges the mind of the soldiers and the mutants. She said it was to make the soldiers unstand why what they were doing was wrong and to see the other side. However she doesn't request their consent.



At least in the past Jean had an issue with this herself when she was a non psi.


Was she in the right?

I really, really prefer the old school art. Look at Storm's expression. Holy shiiit. Volumes in one glare.

Meanwhile, what is WRONG with headgear's face up there in the current book??

[remydat]

The writer is the master of their story. You can't claim violation as if you are the universal arbiter of what constitutes violation. Especially if you are going to cry about inferences. You are inferring something that you admit is not a part of the writer's story then chastising others for inferences that flow from the writer's story. It is like you want us to read your version of the story and not the writers. Perhaps you should write your own story but until then it is obvious from the story told no mutant felt violated.

Jean didn't escalate anything. The soldiers escalated things by threatening force and the green mutant was not going to back down. Ergo force was inevitable before Jean arrived.

Mind control is not the truth. Freeing someone from mind control would be giving them back the truth and there are any number of ways to do so. We don't know all the ways the mind control can be broken nor the different strengths of said mind control. So you are in no position to claim what it takes to break it as you don't know how Taylor's story will unfold. So here you are again trying to force your version of the story onto people. You should write your own fan fic.

Namor isn't Jean and wasn't in LA so no indication he knows what Jean knows. So his threat means nothing as it relates to Jean.

[KurtW95]

Certainly Jean had no reason to alter the minds of the soldiers when there were several alternatives. First, she would know if nanites were affecting their minds without digging deep. Second, if there were nanites, they have a technopath on the team. Third, she still has telekinesis and they have a full squad of X-Men. It would be easy to do it some other way. Lastly, she could use her telepathy to make them seem invisible. It’s still an invasion of privacy, but it’s not nearly as bad as inserting false thoughts. That undermines their autonomy permanently, which I woul say is unethical. Even with the Vanisher example, the amnesia was temporary.

[9th.]

Emma said it best.

ohh where is this from?

[DragonsChi]

Hmmm....anyway you paint it what Jean did is a form of mind control. Using "her" will to replace that of another. So was her action in this issue good....no not really. However, her manipulation did prevent others from being potentially hurt. Doesn't make what she did right but her intentions where in the right place.

Roads leading to hell and all that.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

:P True, honestly I'm half trolling with my posts in this thread. But, just to ask, if a man pushed a womans pleasure buttons (I mean this in a physical way and not psychic like Emma did), against her will and without her consent, to make her orgasm. Would it be considered sexual assault?
Rape may be too strong a term, but I do consider what Emma did sexual assault (now, hold on, I'm actually on her side, we need more of this in the Marvel universe. Imagine if she did this to Blackbolt and Medusa during IVX, that disaster would have been worth it, or to Thor and Captain America in AvX,)

I admire and appreciate your honesty

It most definitely was an assault, but it was also a non-violent solution. It's one thing I Love about Emma. She's honest about how she uses her powers and doesn't feel ashamed for having them or using them.

I think inherently anytime a telepath uses their powers it can be classified as a violation. How many times have we seen any of the telepaths say "I dont want/mean to pry" knowing full well they've already peaked inside someone's thoughts without asking.....at the same time Emma has described telepathy as involuntary. People's thoughts come TO them and they work to build a way to keep them out.

ohh where is this from?

Morrison's New Xmen Jean forces Emma to live through her memories (which was a violation)

[MyriVerse]

Extraordinarily ethical. All she did was show people the other side. She didn't change or manipulate people.

Consent is stupid.

[remydat]

Certainly Jean had no reason to alter the minds of the soldiers when there were several alternatives. First, she would know if nanites were affecting their minds without digging deep. Second, if there were nanites, they have a technopath on the team. Third, she still has telekinesis and they have a full squad of X-Men. It would be easy to do it some other way. Lastly, she could use her telepathy to make them seem invisible. It’s still an invasion of privacy, but it’s not nearly as bad as inserting false thoughts. That undermines their autonomy permanently, which I woul say is unethical. Even with the Vanisher example, the amnesia was temporary.

She had plenty of reason.

1. They were about to commit murder and under the law and ethics killing them would be an appropriate response. Her actual response was far less than killing. In reality if someone tried to murder someone else, there is no obligation to be nice to the would be murderer. So even if you imagine Jean had options, she is not required legally or ethically to choose an option you prefer. She legally and ethically can chose any option up to and including death as she is allowed to respond with an equal measure of force.

2. She wanted people to understand the truth and simply using TK does nothing to achieve that goal. Showing them how mutants feel is showing them the truth. You may not like that option. You may say she forced the truth on them but those soldiers lost their right to object when they chose to engage in mass murder. What option are you suggesting shows them the truth? As her goal wasn't merely to stop them but to educate them regarding the truth.

Not sure why people don't grasp that when you choose mass murder, certain of your rights are legally and ethically forfeited. The rights of victims supersede the rights of would be murderers.

[Hizashi]

She had plenty of reason.

1. They were about to commit murder and under the law and ethics killing them would be an appropriate response. Her actual response was far less than killing. In reality if someone tried to murder someone else, there is no obligation to be nice to the would be murderer. So even if you imagine Jean had options, she is not required legally or ethically to choose an option you prefer. She legally and ethically can chose any option up to and including death as she is allowed to respond with an equal measure of force.

2. She wanted people to understand the truth and simply using TK does nothing to achieve that goal. Showing them how mutants feel is showing them the truth. You may not like that option. You may say she forced the truth on them but those soldiers lost their right to object when they chose to engage in mass murder. What option are you suggesting shows them the truth? As her goal wasn't merely to stop them but to educate them regarding the truth.

Not sure why people don't grasp that when you choose mass murder, certain of your rights are legally and ethically forfeited. The rights of victims supersede the rights of would be murderers.

I’m not disregarding your point of view, I think there’s validity to it certainly, but can you truly not see the tiniest amount of validity to my train of thought? I’ve been consistent that I’m not categorizing Jean’s action as absolutely immoral (that’s my point of view, i can only speak for myself) but that it presents a problem that deserves a deeper examination than we got. That’s especially true for me when I see that it was Jean who did it, someone I’ve seen as, if not the most moral figure the X-Men have, at least among the most moral. She didn’t blatantly override their individual wills, but the method she chose to communicate with opens up implications that I can’t ignore. Now, I agree a little with your first point here that the soldiers forfeited certain rights when they engaged the way that they did, but Jean being within her rights to even kill them in defense of the innocents is a larger issue. That gets into Westphalian and post-Westphalian philosophy doesn’t it? Jean’s team was intervening in a foreign nations affairs, and if she still plans on moving forward with her idea of a mutant nation, that’s gonna have serious ramifications. Or it should anyways.

As far as showing them the truth, Jean could have met them at their level and used speech after stopping their action. Even if they are now enlightened, it’s knowledge they didn’t earn and that’s gonna have negative ramifications, not to mention some are bound to have their fear of mutants exacerbated.

I think we can have useful dialogue here even if we disagree, I hope you can see that I’m not trying to attack Jean herself or even Taylor for that matter.

Edit: I didn’t mean to imply that you think I’m disregarding your point of view, I constructed that first sentence a little poorly.