Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

[blanchett]

The thread wasn’t necessary, I simply raised the problem that I personally had with the implications of the issue. I was questioned and tried to provide context for why it bothered me, and here we are.

I do get that people weren't happy with me starting this thread but I think it was an interesting conversation and one worth having. I think the responses here prove it. As I said earlier I think watching Westworld recently made me think of this a little differently than maybe I would have if I read the scene last year.

Also I am not convinced we aren't supposed to take an issue with what Jean did and this is setting the seeds for something later on with Cassandra.

[remydat]

Is raping someone better or worse than killing them?

Can't it simply be a different kind of not-good thing?

EDIT:

I'd love it if this story lead to one of the mutants saved by the X-men, having experienced the mind of the soldiers willing to kill them, loses it and becomes a violent mutant supremacist because of that shared experience while simultaneously hating/blaming Jean Grey for inflicting that onto them.

It would be poetic.

I know of no scenario where physically raping someone would prevent imminent genocide so your question has nothing to do with the issue.

What makes what Jean did ethical is that it was specifically done to prevent imminent genocide. Just like killing someone is unethical unless you kill someone to prevent imminent genocide.

Not sure why this is a difficult concept for you to grasp across multiple threads. The element you keep ignoring over and over is that a genocide was imminent.

[remydat]

No, its not ethical. Not a fan of what they're doing with the returned Jean Grey, as I figured I probably wouldn't be after the excitement of just her coming back to life wore off. I mean, its not that I can't forgive nor understand why she did it. Its the fact that she seems completely and utterly without care or struggle in that she did do it. That's not been Jean Grey in the past. She's struggled with such things before, greatly. Now she's just "ends justify the means" without it weighing on her mind at all. Its disturbingly modern Cyclops-like.

If you killed someone about to detonate a bomb that would kill women and children, would you be conflicted by it?

I certainly wouldn't as I killed in defense of women and children. So not sure what Jean needs to be conflicted by. Bullets were already flying so a massacre was guaranteed if she did not intervene.

[PunishedFire]

I know of no scenario where physically raping someone would prevent imminent genocide so your question has nothing to do with the issue.

Yeah it's almost like we don't have mental intrusion upon people in real life so we have to equate it to something similar.

Weird, right? It's almost like we're talking about superhero fiction or something...

If you want a real world example, it would be the equivalent of a leader of a group offering up their women as tribute to an invading force in exchange for their lives. Something that DID happen historically.

Was it ethical for those leaders to hand over women as property to invaders so that a genocide of them didn't occur?

What makes what Jean did ethical is that it was specifically done to prevent imminent genocide. Just like killing someone is unethical unless you kill someone to prevent imminent genocide.

Someone can use unethical means to achieve admirable ends.

Do you not grasp that?

Not sure why this is a difficult concept for you to grasp across multiple threads. The element you keep ignoring over and over is that a genocide was imminent.

I have never ignored that. At all. In fact, I've explicitly pointed out that it may have been the best course of action at the time to save lives while still being unethical.

Do you grasp that actions do not have to be starkly black & white virtuous or evil? Serious question...can you countenance the existence of moral complexity in choices & actions?

In fact, several times I've raised the fact that it wasn't just the soldiers (The perpetrators) but the innocent mutants that were violated by Jean's actions.

I haven't seen you address that at all.

Do you have the right to violate someone because you believe it is the best way to help them? Where is the line on that? Would one of the mutants have every right to be unhappy with what Jean did? I know I would be quite upset...while still being glad to be alive.

[blanchett]

If you killed someone about to detonate a bomb that would kill women and children, would you be conflicted by it?

I certainly wouldn't as I killed in defense of women and children. So not sure what Jean needs to be conflicted by. Bullets were already flying so a massacre was guaranteed if she did not intervene.

Here's Jean forcefield being used to defend against one of the olders of the universe.


Here's Jean flying through space close to a star and encases Binary in a force field.


Here's Jean stopping a moving plane.


I mean come on, as if that ARMY was really a threat to even a non Phoenix powered Jean Grey. She didn't need to use her telepathy. She chose to use her telepathy. She could have picked everyone up and just flew off. She had options.

[Hizashi]

I do get that people weren't happy with me starting this thread but I think it was an interesting conversation and one worth having. I think the responses here prove it. As I said earlier I think watching Westworld recently made me think of this a little differently than maybe I would have if I read the scene last year.

Also I am not convinced we aren't supposed to take an issue with what Jean did and this is setting the seeds for something later on with Cassandra.

Yeah, that was part of my argument as well. I haven’t read all of the pages, I’ll have to go back when I can.

[Strong Girl Daken]

People are just looking for reasons to gaslight Jean because comicgaters see her as a SJW.

Jean is a hero but some readers are more interested in vilifying empathy. Hmm wonder why.

Jean could have stopped the bullets with telekinesis but nothing changes if bigots don't have empathy.

[PunishedFire]

People are just looking for reasons to gaslight Jean because comicgaters see her as a SJW.

Jean is a hero but some readers are more interested in vilifying empathy. Hmm wonder why.

Jean could have stopped the bullets with telekinesis but nothing changes if bigots don't have empathy.

Let's see...

gaslight

comicgaters

"vilifying empathy"

bigots

Yup!

BINGO!

I GOT BINGO HERE!

[Strong Girl Daken]

Let's see...

gaslight

comicgaters

"vilifying empathy"

bigots

Yup!

BINGO!

I GOT BINGO HERE!

I can tell you're a real pro bingo player! Congrats, champ. Looks really fulfilling.

Where's the lie in what I said?

[blanchett]

People are just looking for reasons to gaslight Jean because comicgaters see her as a SJW.

Jean is a hero but some readers are more interested in vilifying empathy. Hmm wonder why.

Jean could have stopped the bullets with telekinesis but nothing changes if bigots don't have empathy.

It was a controversial moment in a comic book we all read where the hero made a questionable decision and we're talking about it.

I mean whatever your opinion on it, it was interesting enough to spark people on either side.

I think there are ethical implications for her using her powers this way. It comes across like she still sees herself as a goddess.

As I said before I am not convinced this is not part of the overall story of Red. Taylor choose Nightcrawler and Storm, arguably two of the most moral X-Men to be in the cast. This might be a talking point later on.

[Del torro]

You use the term "rape" far too easily out of context. You know exactly what it is and the context you're using is simply for provocation.

:P True, honestly I'm half trolling with my posts in this thread. But, just to ask, if a man pushed a womans pleasure buttons (I mean this in a physical way and not psychic like Emma did), against her will and without her consent, to make her orgasm. Would it be considered sexual assault?
Rape may be too strong a term, but I do consider what Emma did sexual assault (now, hold on, I'm actually on her side, we need more of this in the Marvel universe. Imagine if she did this to Blackbolt and Medusa during IVX, that disaster would have been worth it, or to Thor and Captain America in AvX,)

[Hizashi]

Why can’t I find Jean’s action questionable without being painted in a negative light or for some to assume things about me or my motivations?

[Strong Girl Daken]

A few people hung up on the non-violent potential of Jean's empathy does not constitute any real kind of controversy. This thread doesn't exist in a vacuum on these boards. It's clear what the most active posters in this thread are trying to say.

[The Thunderbird]

I wonder if Cassandra Nova would find out about this and could she possibly use it against Jean? She already told at least one world leader that Jean blew up the asparagus people.

[remydat]

Yeah it's almost like we don't have mental intrusion upon people in real life so we have to equate it to something similar.

Weird, right? It's almost like we're talking about superhero fiction or something...

If you want a real world example, it would be the equivalent of a leader of a group offering up their women as tribute to an invading force in exchange for their lives. Something that DID happen historically.

Was it ethical for those leaders to hand over women as property to invaders so that a genocide of them didn't occur?



Someone can use unethical means to achieve admirable ends.

Do you not grasp that?



I have never ignored that. At all. In fact, I've explicitly pointed out that it may have been the best course of action at the time to save lives while still being unethical.

Do you grasp that actions do not have to be starkly black & white virtuous or evil? Serious question...can you countenance the existence of moral complexity in choices & actions?

In fact, several times I've raised the fact that it wasn't just the soldiers (The perpetrators) but the innocent mutants that were violated by Jean's actions.

I haven't seen you address that at all.

Do you have the right to violate someone because you believe it is the best way to help them? Where is the line on that? Would one of the mutants have every right to be unhappy with what Jean did? I know I would be quite upset...while still being glad to be alive.

The issue is your comparisons are bullshit. Your initial rape example had no imminent genocide. Your revised example is still bullshit because the people being violated are innocent women. The soldiers are not innocent. They are the perpetrators. The better comparison which I already gave you is someone killing the invading force which is 100% ethical. The distinction being the people being violated are the would be murderers.

So stop being disingenuous. If you want to make a comparison then the threat of death needs to be imminent and the people being violated have to be the actual assholes trying to murder not innocents.Duh!

If you can point to a mutant saying they would rather die than allow Jean to use their memories to save them then you can claim they were violated. Otherwise your claim is bogus. You can't magically decide for others whether they feel violated unless you go write your own book. It is obvious they appreciated being saved. You aren't a mutant in the story so how you feel is irrelevant with respect to whether it was ethical.