View Poll Results: Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

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  • Yes

    87 71.90%
  • No

    34 28.10%
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  1. #46
    Fantastic Member PrezValentine's Avatar
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    Ethical? Probably not. The right thing to do since a lot of lives were at stake? Absolutely. There's no time to have such trivial concerns when people need saving. Jean took the best course of action, even if it's questionable or some sort of abuse of her powers in the eyes of others.
    Last edited by PrezValentine; 06-12-2018 at 06:30 PM.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Was the X-Men infecting those Skrulls with the legacy virus ethical? Definitely not but it has been swept under the carpet

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Was the X-Men infecting those Skrulls with the legacy virus ethical? Definitely not but it has been swept under the carpet
    Beast was racking up a lot of genocides around that period. It was hard to keep up.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Whatís beautiful about making her an intrusive, vindictive jerk?
    Okay, you're definitely trolling now.

    There was nothing vindictive about what she did, or intrusive.

  5. #50
    Incredible Member ButterRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    I think one of the reasons it's resonating with me is that I am watching Westworld and how the importance free will is with that series and those characters. spoilers:
    Dolores alters Teddy's code. The aim so she says is to make it so he can survive in their world. She actually bumps up his intellect so he can better understand what is going on around him. Even though it's an "improvement", the show treats what she does as a violation. Teddy wanted to stay Teddy. Dolores doesn't have his consent. There's nothing more intimate than someone's own mind.
    end of spoilers.Widely different situations but I can see a similarity in adjusting someone.

    I am not saying that Jean's intentions weren't pure but if she does it without consent when to me she had other options (Jean and Ororo on their own could have dealt with that situation) was she right to act how she acted?

    I also don't hate Jean Grey. It's kind of a stupid reaction to me critizing her actions in one comic book.

    Not crazy about how she's been handled but I am not convinced it's not part of a larger arc for her yet.
    I know what you mean about TV shows having you rethink superpowers and free will.

    Jessica Jones and Black Mirror don't treat telepathy as a joke, and it's extremely scary to watch people undergo telepathic intrusion against their will.

    I think fiction in general treats telepathy very casually without any real consequences,, whereas the consequences stick in tv shows like Jessica Jones and Black Mirror, so you get to see how horrible telepathy is.

  6. #51
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Okay, you're definitely trolling now.

    There was nothing vindictive about what she did, or intrusive.
    Dude, she pried into a dude’s mind and lectured on his secrets with a holier-than-thou attitude.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Vegan Daddy's Avatar
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    Yes, flatscans need to be taken in hand. Itís for their own good.

  8. #53
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Dude, she pried into a dude’s mind and lectured on his secrets with a holier-than-thou attitude.
    No, she didn't. She had a hotdog thrown at her and heard a dude's thought right after she came back to life and THEN lectured him. Rightfully. Because who the fuck throws a hotdog at school kids?

    Come the fuck on now.

    "I've never felt the world so angry. So divided. I can hear you. I can hear your pain. Your fear. Your anxiety. I want to help. I don't know how, but I'll learn." - X-Men Red #1(2018)

  9. #54
    Incredible Member MarquisAsh's Avatar
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    I don’t think Jean was wrong at all. People need to actually take a walk in other peoples shoes and see how they would like it if they were in this situation. Jean and her x-men purpose was to save the mutants in that country.

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    I actually look forward to that, although I still stand by the idea that some readers believe Jean is some saint like figure she never was. She's killed before, I mean as just Jean Grey, she isn't the frail flower some believe her to be. And I also don't think she's someone unwilling to bend, change, or modify her plans based on the information she has available.

    It's going to be interesting to see how she gets to grow, and learn from this new landscape.
    Yes, it will be.

    These are great questions given the current books? I could surmise, Kitty would have saved everyone in Gold team be damned, and I wouldn't have been surprised if Mags slaughtered them, at least Lorna would have given them the option to flee....maybe.
    I would agree about Kitty's actions.

    In terms of Magneto and Polaris it's iffy. Lorna gave SWAT a few seconds in ANXF to stop shooting and run before in her words bodies start to drop. If the soldiers killed some of them I could also imagine them disarming the soldiers and letting the oppressed mutants fight with them hand to hand so the mutants start to see themselves as resistance fighters.
    Last edited by jmc247; 06-13-2018 at 05:12 AM.

  11. #56
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    No, she didn't. She had a hotdog thrown at her and heard a dude's thought right after she came back to life and THEN lectured him. Rightfully. Because who the fuck throws a hotdog at school kids?

    Come the fuck on now.
    He was being a jerk, but she still invaded his mind. And the new location of the school is idiotically smack-dab in the middle of Central Park. Might as well put up a neon sign that reads “attack us.”
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  12. #57
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    This was the supposed "mind rape" that was talked about? She just gave them empathy.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Woo, I didn't expect this to get it's own thread when I raised my problem with it. It was just a tiny footnote in my summary of the 5th issue. I haven't argued it was extreme, just that it was at least morally questionable regardless of the situation. I don't understand if someone thinks Jean had to do it, she had an entire team behind her, including Storm!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    No, she didn't. She had a hotdog thrown at her and heard a dude's thought right after she came back to life and THEN lectured him. Rightfully. Because who the fuck throws a hotdog at school kids?

    Come the fuck on now.
    Look, the guy is an idiot, but they've dealt with far worse than a hot dog; Jean's response was disproportionate to the fools actions, she made him very aware that his darkest secrets were no longer secrets to her. Why isn't that, I dunno, not okay? Not even evil, just maybe not okay?

  14. #59
    I am an honest signal PunishedFire's Avatar
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    It was a regrettable use of powers.

    If it was the "only" way to stop death...then stopping death is more important.

    I am not convinced it was the only option. If she could have done that, she could have knocked all the soldiers unconscious.

    Invading someones thoughts is unethical. It's a bad thing. Forcing experiences on them is also unethical.

    This is one of the major problems with heroes having powers like mind-reading and telepathy. Unless you keep a TIGHT rein on them, they will do things that are unethical but get excused as "necessary".

    A writer should not be exercising that option willy-nilly. It undermines not only the hero but also the universe because, guess what, if I was one of those soldiers there is no way to know that you weren't reprogrammed in that moment. Jean can claim all she wants that she just "shared minds" with people...but that is impossible to verify for anyone else. Hell, considering the issues mutants (Jean including) have controlling their powers some times, we don't know that she DIDN'T subconsciously scramble parts of their brain.

    The Chad situation is also scary. This screams of wish-fulfillment to me when it happens to much. Wish fulfillment that people could just reach inside other peoples heads and pick out their weaknesses and foibles and throw them back at that person and "own" them. Embarrass them. "Fix" them.

    Fix them like the soldiers.

    It's easy to imagine that if you had power (like Jean or even real world influence) that you could "ethically" force people to be better or, simply, to be a way that YOU deem is better. That power is DANGEROUS. Telepathy is DANGEROUS. That way lies "re-education". Indoctrination. Intolerance.

    Telepathy is a bad power for a hero when it involves planting things inside peoples minds without their permission.

    The mind and someones thoughts/feelings are theirs. They have dominion over it. Like their body.

    Imagine if Jean Grey had touched all of those people (soldiers and mutants) in where-ever they feel is their most personal physical place....

    But it stopped violence.

    Would we even be having a discussion whether or not it was ethical for Jean Grey to physically violate people in so intimate a manner? No. We would immediately recognize it as a REALLY creepy part of the story. Even if we could rationalize that "well it saved lives...", it would still be uncomfortable. It would still nag and feel wrong.

    As it should.

    And, remember, this includes the mutants she was saving. She violated them as well.

    Was it necessary in the moment? I'm not convinced of that. Even if the word-of-god writer says it was the ONLY answer in that situation (again, I doubt this considering the array of super powers available) that just means the author contrived a situation where something was the only option.

    Was it ethical? Absolutely not.

  15. #60
    Live, Jean! Live! Disciple of Redd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    It was a regrettable use of powers.

    She should have just knocked them out
    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    Forcing experiences is terrible.

    lol so amusing

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