View Poll Results: Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

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  • Yes

    87 71.90%
  • No

    34 28.10%
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  1. #76
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    What Jean did was 100% right.

    I have absolutely no issue with it all.
    Last edited by Username taken; 06-12-2018 at 10:01 PM.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    If the leader of the X-men isn't being held to a higher standard...who is?

    Jean should hold herself to the highest standards for ethical use of mutant powers...otherwise she's validating humanities fear of mutants and even, in some cases, justifying it (in her case).

    Empath, for example, was rightly considered a piece of garbage for manipulating how people feel.

    Daken is a sociopath and he uses his powers similarly.

    Shadow King effectively turned Muir Island into a utopia by virtue of making everyone the the thrall of the Shadow King. Even though Muir Island was then without crime or hate or fear, it doesn't make it an ethical thing to do.

    A character like Psychoman using technology to turn everyone on his planet into happy, docile sheep doesn't make what he did ethical just because the outcome is "good".

    Some characters get held to higher standards.

    And they should.
    Most of the leaders of the X-men have done things that would be considered worst than what Jean did.

    As far as your whole argument of her holding herself to the highest standards for ethical use of her powers, she is a telepath her power is to use her mind to transport thought or information from one mind to another.

    Jean did not do any of your examples.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Magicians don’t go into your brains and take in your private thoughts or implant new ones by force.
    Magicians put false illusions and memories into people all the time.SMDH.

  4. #79
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    So basically she did what 1996 Nate Grey would of done? Hmmmm...Jean Grey is WAY TOO MUCH of a good girl character to be doing that.

  5. #80
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    Magicians put false illusions and memories into people all the time.SMDH.
    I don’t follow. Fooling somebody with slight of hand is not changing anybody’s natural actions against their will or intruding to obtain secrets that way.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member Master of Sound's Avatar
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    She did not alter their minds, she showed them each other's feelings. Nothing wrong with that.
    Stop complaining and start dancing

  7. #82
    I am an honest signal PunishedFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    Most of the leaders of the X-men have done things that would be considered worst than what Jean did.
    This is a faulty argument. That someone else has done something worse would never make something else wrong suddenly right.

    As far as your whole argument of her holding herself to the highest standards for ethical use of her powers, she is a telepath her power is to use her mind to transport thought or information from one mind to another.
    Please see my point and that of others that telepathy is a minefield of a power for heroes. Also, telepathy can also just be speaking into peoples minds as if you were standing there with them and talking aloud.

    Jean did not do any of your examples.
    But you agree those characters invading other peoples minds is unethical as an act regardless of the outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEsta View Post
    So basically she did what 1996 Nate Grey would of done? Hmmmm...Jean Grey is WAY TOO MUCH of a good girl character to be doing that.
    One of my favorite characters back in the day. I have the entire X-man series. And yup, Nate used his powers unethically all the time.

  8. #83
    I am an honest signal PunishedFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Sound View Post
    She did not alter their minds, she showed them each other's feelings. Nothing wrong with that.
    You walk into school/work tomorrow.

    A mutant looks at you and says aloud "Master of Sound is attracted to so-and-so" and uses their powers to make sure so-and-so knows it is true.

    No harm, no foul, right? All they did was show another person your feelings.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    This is a faulty argument. That someone else has done something worse would never make something else wrong suddenly right.



    Please see my point and that of others that telepathy is a minefield of a power for heroes. Also, telepathy can also just be speaking into peoples minds as if you were standing there with them and talking aloud.



    But you agree those characters invading other peoples minds is unethical as an act regardless of the outcome?



    One of my favorite characters back in the day. I have the entire X-man series. And yup, Nate used his powers unethically all the time.
    I would not consider it a faulty argument since we are talking about the X-men here. They are not the team that strives to be the ones that win the ethical battle. X-men leaders do what is best to keep the X-men and mutants alive. They are not the epitome of ethics or morality. They are not the standard superheroes.

    Yeah and if she just spoke into their minds i think the same argument would be in place.

    Yes i agree those examples were unethical. I don't consider Shadow king taking over Muir Island made it a paradise. It kinda resembled just a twisted version of fight club to me.

  10. #85
    I am an honest signal PunishedFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    I would not consider it a faulty argument since we are talking about the X-men here. They are not the team that strives to be the ones that win the ethical battle. X-men leaders do what is best to keep the X-men and mutants alive. They are not the epitome of ethics or morality. They are not the standard superheroes.
    Their entire original purpose was to absolutely be the ethical example for mutants to follow and for humanity to see that mutants were capable of incredible good.

    If their goal is to "keep X-men and the mutants alive" then something like Avalon is a better method.

    Yeah and if she just spoke into their minds i think the same argument would be in place.
    I have never had a problem with a telepath speaking to someone. Humans communicate with one another...it's normal. So long as they aren't plucking thoughts out of a persons head (IE: limiting themselves to what the person is actually saying) it isn't a problem at all ethically speaking.

    Yes i agree those examples were unethical. I don't consider Shadow king taking over Muir Island made it a paradise. It kinda resembled just a twisted version of fight club to me.
    Everyone seemed to be enjoying it. And, by everyone, I mean the Shadow King...who was effectively every one.

    #TheShadowKingDidNothingWrong

    #YesIamAnOldSchoolShadowKingFanboy

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member Master of Sound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    You walk into school/work tomorrow.

    A mutant looks at you and says aloud "Master of Sound is attracted to so-and-so" and uses their powers to make sure so-and-so knows it is true.

    No harm, no foul, right? All they did was show another person your feelings.
    Gosh, you do have a good sense of drama...

    The situation was a bit different here. The soldiers threatened the mutants to shoot them. That is a very very different situation than me walking into school.

    She was doing this in a in life threating situation. So yes then it okay for me.
    Stop complaining and start dancing

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunishedFire View Post
    Their entire original purpose was to absolutely be the ethical example for mutants to follow and for humanity to see that mutants were capable of incredible good.



    I have never had a problem with a telepath speaking to someone. Humans communicate with one another...it's normal. So long as they aren't plucking thoughts out of a persons head (IE: limiting themselves to what the person is actually saying) it isn't a problem at all ethically speaking.



    Everyone seemed to be enjoying it. And, by everyone, I mean the Shadow King...who was effectively every one.

    #TheShadowKingDidNothingWrong

    #YesIamAnOldSchoolShadowKingFanboy
    No their purpose was not absolutely to be the ethical example for mutants. He formed the school so mutants could have a safe haven to learn using their powers

    Well communicating to someone mind is the same as sharing some thoughts. So i don't see how that is more ethical than what jean did.

    The entire Island was being controlled by the Shadow King. So everyone was not enjoying it he was controlling them.

  13. #88
    I am an honest signal PunishedFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    No their purpose was not absolutely to be the ethical example for mutants. He formed the school so mutants could have a safe haven to learn using their powers
    "Under a cloud of increasing anti-mutant sentiment, Professor Xavier created a safe haven at his Westchester mansion where he could train young mutants to use their powers for the betterment of mankind"

    More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/X-Men#ixzz5IHbVW520

    The X-men were explicitly deployed by Professor X as superheroes after he trained them to use their powers, not to hide, but to help and protect people from evil mutants.

    The entire purpose of the school was to teach mutants...to be ethical. To be heroes.

    Seriously have you read X-men?

    In fact, this is the entire reason Amelia Voght left Xavier: she wanted mutants to hide away and not reveal themselves. Xavier wanted them to help humanity with their powers as superheroes.

    This is explicit, on-panel fact.

    Well communicating to someone mind is the same as sharing some thoughts. So i don't see how that is more ethical than what jean did.
    A telepath sharing their thoughts with someone is them sharing their own thoughts

    From now on just substitute the word "body" for "thoughts"

    It is ethical for someone to share access to their body with someone else. It is unethical to share another persons body with someone else because you do not have the right to decide what they do. Similarly, a person does not have the right to have access to another persons body whenever they want.

    A telepath does not have a right to intrude on the thoughts of someone else without consent just like you do not have the right to access someones body without consent.

    It is a very simple concept.

    The entire Island was being controlled by the Shadow King. So everyone was not enjoying it he was controlling them.
    If he's amplifying their own impulses , they're explicitly enjoying it. They may not be in an uninfluenced frame of mind...but they are enjoying it.
    Last edited by PunishedFire; 06-12-2018 at 11:26 PM.

  14. #89
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    PunishedFire
    After reading all this it occurs to me that the people here quite often don't seem to fully grasp ethics vs morality, and honestly most people don't.
    That being said... you've put forth one of the most well thought out arguments I've ever read here on these forums.

    I read the book, and superficially I thought "Oh well at least she didn't mind wipe them" but I see now that really its the type of thing that makes indiviuals instead of nations hate mutants.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    No their purpose was not absolutely to be the ethical example for mutants. He formed the school so mutants could have a safe haven to learn using their powers.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

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