Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

[Jesse-James]

Well if I could do something similar to avoid a slaughter, I would.

Jean avoided solders killing mutants (and some of them returning the favor), so I think she's a hero doing that.

If you would be able to do this and avoid a slaughter, would you not? Well, to me, if you could avoid the slaughtering of people, you should.

Screw the rules of being ethical in those cases.

How about that for a thought?

[PunishedFire]

After reading all this it occurs to me that the people here quite often don't seem to fully grasp ethics vs morality, and honestly most people don't.
That being said... you've put forth one of the most well thought out arguments I've ever read here on these forums.

I read the book, and superficially I thought "Oh well at least she didn't mind wipe them" but I see now that really its the type of thing that makes indiviuals instead of nations hate mutants.

Thank you much. That's really appreciated.

Well if I could do something similar to avoid a slaughter, I would.

Jean avoided solders killing mutants (and some of them returning the favor), so I think she's a hero doing that.

If you would be able to do this and avoid a slaughter, would you not? Well, to me, if you could avoid the slaughtering of people, you should.

Screw the rules of being ethical in those cases.

How about that for a thought?

Those are slippery morals.

Would you slaughter 100 innocent people to save 1000? Would it be moral?

[Jesse-James]

Those are slippery morals.

Would you slaughter 100 innocent people to save 1000? Would it be moral?

No I would not! To me, murder is murder. But in some cases that evenit might become slippery, indeed. Would you kill Hitler if you could have? But that is not the topic we are discussing, I believe.

Jean did not slaughter a 100 to avoid 1000, did she?
She avoided a slaughter without killing anyone.

[KurtW95]

With regard to the X-Men’s mission statement. From X-Men #1.

[Tazpocalapse]

"Under a cloud of increasing anti-mutant sentiment, Professor Xavier created a safe haven at his Westchester mansion where he could train young mutants to use their powers for the betterment of mankind"

More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/universe/X-Men#ixzz5IHbVW520

The X-men were explicitly deployed by Professor X as superheroes after he trained them to use their powers, not to hide, but to help and protect people from evil mutants.

The entire purpose of the school was to teach mutants...to be ethical.

Seriously have you read X-men?



A telepath sharing their thoughts with someone is them sharing their own thoughts

From now on just substitute the word "body" for "thoughts"

It is ethical for someone to share access to their body with someone else. It is unethical to share another persons body with someone else because you do not have the right to decide what they do. Similarly, a person does not have the right to have access to another persons body whenever they want.

A telepath does not have a right to intrude on the thoughts of someone else without consent just like you do not have the right to access someones body without consent.

It is a very simple concept.



If he's amplifying their own impulses , they're explicitly enjoying it. They may not be in an uninfluenced frame of mind...but they are enjoying it.

Yes i do read X-men comics i have bought hundreds of them #1 Uncanny X-men Professor X states to Jean. Here we stay unsuspected by normal humans as we learn to use our powers for the benefit of mankind. To help those who distrust us if they knew of our existence. That is the actual quote from the comic. Seriously have you read X-men?

X-men #2 Professor X uses his telepathy to block Vanisher powers and access to his memory. Seriously have you read older X-men comics?

A body and thoughts are 2 completely separate things that can not be easily compared in this circumstance. Telepathy is a power that can be used in a aggressive manner the same as manipulation of certain energy fields in individuals bodys. Many mutant abilities are psoinic by nature. They are also non-consental. No X-man has the right to use their abilities on anyone without consent.

Did you read the comic seriously some of them were being beaten so they were not enjoying it.

[Tazpocalapse]

I don’t follow. Fooling somebody with slight of hand is not changing anybody’s natural actions against their will or intruding to obtain secrets that way.

I'm not talking about slight of hand i am talking about Hypnosis and other methods used.

[PunishedFire]

No I would not! To me, murder is murder. But in some cases that evenit might become slippery, indeed. Would you kill Hitler if you could have? But that is not the topic we are discussing, I believe.

Jean did not slaughter a 100 to avoid 1000, did she?
She avoided a slaughter without killing anyone.

But can murder be moral?

Jean exposed the psyches of people against their will to others.

If she had exposed their bodies...would that also be okay?

Also, an action can be justified after the fact...while still being unethical. I am starting to think people might not understand that.

If a police officer, for instance, uses his resources in a to find out about a woman he met and he courts her and they end up in a happy relationship and she is happy with what he did to find her (despite it having had nothing to do with his job)...that wouldn't mean what he did was ethical. Even though no one was even hurt by it, and both parties involved are happy it happened...it was still unethical.

[KurtW95]

X-Men #2 is one of the situations I was talking about. Vanisher was literally stealing government defense plans to give the communists. That was treason in wartime. The other options would have been communists geting plans or him getting executed. And he wasn’t a random guy with no powers throwing a hotdog or soldiers doing their bidding.

[KurtW95]

I'm not talking about slight of hand i am talking about Hypnosis and other methods used.

Clearly you don’t know how hypnosis works. It’s not like it is on TV. People that get hypnotized are in full control. They have to want to do it.

[PunishedFire]

Yes i do read X-men comics i have bought hundreds of them #1 Uncanny X-men Professor X states to Jean. Here we stay unsuspected by normal humans as we learn to use our powers for the benefit of mankind. To help those who distrust us if they knew of our existence. That is the actual quote from the comic. Seriously have you read X-men?

The bold part is pretty implicit regarding it being a moral mission.

X-men #2 Professor X uses his telepathy to block Vanisher powers and access to his memory. Seriously have you read older X-men comics?

And?

Mind wiping Vanisher was not an ethical use of Professor X's powers. It was WAY overkill.

A body and thoughts are 2 completely separate things that can not be easily compared in this circumstance. Telepathy is a power that can be used in a aggressive manner the same as manipulation of certain energy fields in individuals bodys. Many mutant abilities are psoinic by nature. They are also non-consental. No X-man has the right to use their abilities on anyone without consent.

Thoughts are more sacrosanct than the body. This is why assault is a crime and torture is a crime against humanity. Torture is designed to inflict suffering and mental torment. That emotional pain is what makes torture worse than just physical harm to someone.

The bold part is a statement without any weight behind it.

Jean Grey did not have consent from ANY of the mutants present to reveal their psychic being to the soldiers. By your own statement that no X-man should use their abilities on anyone without consent, she violated that by violating them.

And if you say "Well it saved their lives" that is post-event justification for an immoral act. Claiming "it was for your own good" is just about the ultimate slippery slope for someone in a position of power (which Jean Grey absolutely is).

Did you read the comic seriously some of them were being beaten so they were not enjoying it.

I thought I was being pretty clear with the #ShadowKingDidNothingWrong that I'm giving Mr. Farouk an unlimited pass. :P

[PunishedFire]

X-Men #2 is one of the situations I was talking about. Vanisher was literally stealing government defense plans to give the communists. That was treason in wartime. The other options would have been communists geting plans or him getting executed. And he wasn’t a random guy with no powers throwing a hotdog or soldiers doing their bidding.

And I would still stand-by my statement that Xavier did not act in an ethical manner...even if it was to stop someone from helping Commie scum.

This is, of course, consistent with Xavier over the years though being a pretty poor ethical example for people in the comics. Again, another problem with telepath/mind-control heroes. It is a REALLY ethically dangerous subject

[Tazpocalapse]

Clearly you don’t know how hypnosis works. It’s not like it is on TV. People that get hypnotized are in full control. They have to want to do it.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...glish/hypnosis I think i will take this over your expert opinion.

[Tazpocalapse]

And I would still stand-by my statement that Xavier did not act in an ethical manner...even if it was to stop someone from helping Commie scum.

This is, of course, consistent with Xavier over the years though being a pretty poor ethical example for people in the comics. Again, another problem with telepath/mind-control heroes. It is a REALLY ethically dangerous subject

Well maybe the problem is the X-men have a different set of ethics than you and others do. Maybe you guys should read books that may not hurt your feelings as much. Try the Care Bears.

[PunishedFire]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...glish/hypnosis I think i will take this over your expert opinion.

Do...

Do you think that stage hypnosis with Magicians is real?

notsure-1.jpg

[PunishedFire]

Well maybe the problem is the X-men have a different set of ethics than you and others do. Maybe you guys should read books that may not hurt your feelings as much. Try the Care Bears.

Projection.

Try a flavor other than salty and people might believe you're not the one acting SUPER emotional right now.

We're discussing comic book characters. You don't need to take it personally because you like the fictional red-head getting criticized due to actions a writer had her take in a story.