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  1. #3046
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Because Singer( to a lesser degree) and Fox didn't respect the source material. Singer only cared about social commentary and X-men as metaphor minorites and LGBTQ community other than he didn't do the X-men that well and yes X2 and DoFP are great movies but some of that in spite of him and fox not because it is no accident that two movies that most closely resemble comic plotlines are the strongest in the franchise.

    The X-men isn't just social commentary doing just one aspect well isn't enough. Fox didn't care about the general storyline of the franchise, Fox didn't about characters major characters like Sabertooth, Colossus, Storm, Kitty, Jubilee, Nightcrawler not being 2 dimensional side characters, They were shame of the comic book aspects like costumes, cosmic elements or silly family connections,They though storyline and characters where interchangeable,etc.

    In reality they just wanted do "Heroes" style superhero story heavily grounded in reality just enough elements of the comics to make a fan take a look at it. X-men name was just bait fans while they use the property characters as toy box for writers to attach general scripts to it. I am not saying I am completely right that how I feel about the movies. Something like X-men First Class for me was a good movie but a bad X-men adaption.

    Nobody is saying movies have to be one for one retelling of the comics, The Avengers and most of Marvel movies aren't that but these movies carried the spirit of the comics and they weren't ashamed of the source material(except Thor 1).
    Why do you keep saying they didn't respect the source material? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say because I honestly can't understand why you would think someone would sink hundreds of millions of dollars (over a billion when you consider all films made) into something they don't respect, much less purchase the rights to be able to produce the movie in the first place. I mean are we really saying the don't respect the source because the team didn't rock bright yellow spandex? None of the story lines before X3 had anything to do with the cosmic side of things and by that point the grounded take had worked really well for the franchise and X3 still made the most money of the original trilogy despite being a unique spin on the Dark Phoenix story.

    Again, the Fox movies set up the industry so that movies like Iron Man could even be green lit. I just don't think it's fair to look back 20 years later and criticize choices that were made that turned out to be a major reason the MCU exists. People take the MCU seriously because the X-Men movies came out, not in spite of them.
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  2. #3047
    Amazing Member OblivionX33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Why do you keep saying they didn't respect the source material? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say because I honestly can't understand why you would think someone would sink hundreds of millions of dollars (over a billion when you consider all films made) into something they don't respect, much less purchase the rights to be able to produce the movie in the first place. I mean are we really saying the don't respect the source because the team didn't rock bright yellow spandex? None of the story lines before X3 had anything to do with the cosmic side of things and by that point the grounded take had worked really well for the franchise and X3 still made the most money of the original trilogy despite being a unique spin on the Dark Phoenix story.

    Again, the Fox movies set up the industry so that movies like Iron Man could even be green lit. I just don't think it's fair to look back 20 years later and criticize choices that were made that turned out to be a major reason the MCU exists. People take the MCU seriously because the X-Men movies came out, not in spite of them.
    Are you new to the realities of the movie industry? they do it all the time.

    Also you are being oddly dismissive of the real issue with Fox's version. Do you work there or something?

  3. #3048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Why do you keep saying they didn't respect the source material? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say because I honestly can't understand why you would think someone would sink hundreds of millions of dollars (over a billion when you consider all films made) into something they don't respect, much less purchase the rights to be able to produce the movie in the first place. I mean are we really saying the don't respect the source because the team didn't rock bright yellow spandex? None of the story lines before X3 had anything to do with the cosmic side of things and by that point the grounded take had worked really well for the franchise and X3 still made the most money of the original trilogy despite being a unique spin on the Dark Phoenix story.

    Again, the Fox movies set up the industry so that movies like Iron Man could even be green lit. I just don't think it's fair to look back 20 years later and criticize choices that were made that turned out to be a major reason the MCU exists. People take the MCU seriously because the X-Men movies came out, not in spite of them.
    Spiderman 1 was in development before X-men 1 hit theathers. Sam Raimi was attached to it before X-men had premiere. This movie earned more than X-men 1 and 2 combined.

    There is a big possibility that even withour X-men movies Marvel would go and create something similar to Spiderman movies. Oh wait... MCU movies are more similar to Raimi movies than singer/kinberg movies.

    Kinberg doesn't respect the source material (Except Magneto). Kinberg believes than Dark Phoenix is Logan and Jean love story.

    “If you know the Dark Phoenix story, you’d want to really service the love story between Logan and Jean,” Kinberg said. “And I think the notion of Hugh Jackman, as great as he looks for his age, and Sophie Turner — it didn’t sit well with me. Or anyone else!”
    https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/wolverin...qqJ65yjSDXWm31

    If Jackman would be younger then we would have another dark phoenix adaptation without Cyclops.

    I don't think that You must respect something if You want to earn money using it.
    Last edited by Xelossik; 07-16-2019 at 02:53 AM.

  4. #3049
    Extraordinary Member Purplevit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelossik View Post
    Spiderman 1 was in development before X-men 1 hit theathers. Sam Raimi was attached to it before X-men had premiere. This movie earned more than X-men 1 and 2 combined.

    There is a big possibility that even withour X-men movies Marvel would go and create something similar to Spiderman movies. Oh wait... MCU movies are more similar to Raimi movies than singer/kinberg movies.

    Kinberg doesn't respect the source material (Except Magneto). Kinberg believes than Dark Phoenix is Logan and Jean love story.

    “If you know the Dark Phoenix story, you’d want to really service the love story between Logan and Jean,” Kinberg said. “And I think the notion of Hugh Jackman, as great as he looks for his age, and Sophie Turner — it didn’t sit well with me. Or anyone else!”
    https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/wolverin...qqJ65yjSDXWm31

    If Jackman would be younger then we would have another dark phoenix adaptation without Cyclops.

    I don't think that You must respect something if You want to earn money using it.
    No. Jackman ended everything with Logan. Even if he looked fine near Sophie, he still won`t return. Just Kinberg excuses.

  5. #3050
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Why do you keep saying they didn't respect the source material? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say because I honestly can't understand why you would think someone would sink hundreds of millions of dollars (over a billion when you consider all films made) into something they don't respect, much less purchase the rights to be able to produce the movie in the first place. I mean are we really saying the don't respect the source because the team didn't rock bright yellow spandex? None of the story lines before X3 had anything to do with the cosmic side of things and by that point the grounded take had worked really well for the franchise and X3 still made the most money of the original trilogy despite being a unique spin on the Dark Phoenix story.

    Again, the Fox movies set up the industry so that movies like Iron Man could even be green lit. I just don't think it's fair to look back 20 years later and criticize choices that were made that turned out to be a major reason the MCU exists. People take the MCU seriously because the X-Men movies came out, not in spite of them.
    I am not looking back 20 years later,This has been my primary complaint with the franchise. Good Superheroes movies not necessarily good X-men adaptations.I feel they could strip the X-men name off ,get different actors,tweak to avoid the Marvel copyright and a lot of Fox X-men movies wouldn't miss much from the X-men franchise not being a part. Fox never fully respected the source material if you disagree that is fine but when I look over the whole thing that is the key missing element.

    This quote that sums what Bryan Singer likes about the X-men.
    “I grew up a Jewish kid in a Catholic neighbourhood, I was an only child, I was a nerd in school, I was struggling with sexuality issues – all sorts of things were happening,” he said. “So when I suddenly come across this universe that’s all about misfits and outcasts who become superheroes, it intrigued me.”
    That explains why when not really respecting the source material imo, He was able to make good X-men movies. He was only concern for the X-men when they were being a metaphor for minorities and when the movies focus on that stayed in that bubble they were most fine.The mutant struggle is big part of the X-men that why some movies worked. The action, the overall continuity and comic elements aka important characters, family connections, friendships, relationships he didn't care for enough for and a lot of magic of the X-men is team connections.Wolverine and Cyclops growing into respect each other would have been amazing to see on screen and it is stuff like that they missed.Singer set the tone of the franchise. Singer was general the architect being producer or director on most films.

    I never even read comics when I was a kid. I was an old Star Trek fan. I just knew I wanted to work in the sci-fi fantasy space
    Bryan Singer avoided drowning himself in 40 years of comic-book history by binge-watching all 76 episodes of X-Men: The Animated Series.
    He didn't read comics as kid which is fine, He watch binge watch the cartoon which while good was a dummy down version of the property.Now for the Hugh Jackman quote again and the Oliva Munn quote

    Hugh Jackman
    Bryan Singer had this thing that people would think he really wanted to take comic book characters seriously, as real three-dimensional characters, that people who don't understand these comics might think they're two-dimensional, so no one was allowed [comics]. ... It was contraband. I'd never read X-Men, so people were slipping them under my door.
    Olivia Munn
    When I was doing ‘X-Men,’ I was actually surprised that the director and the writer didn’t even know that Psylocke had a twin brother,” Munn said. “And I had to talk to them about a lot of different things about Psylocke and some other parts of the world that they didn’t even know, and that, as a fan, was very frustrating.
    So he banned comics because he felt the characters in them where two dimensional without really reading them. Now of course I don't think he never picked a comic after but we have enough info understand that he didn't really respect the comics.

    On other comic book movies they give actors a stack of specific books they should read and to prepare for idea of what their character is and the X-men comics have enough depth where what Singer is saying about them is wrong. Now they are many others stuff in the movie and change stylewise that show you my opinion they didn't care. I think Fox got the X-men to use what they think was the value assets from it. I don't think Fox ever view the whole property as collective as valuable. And Singer didn't help only valuing a certain aspect of the franchise
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 07-16-2019 at 03:36 AM.

  6. #3051
    Fantastic Member Maestro 216's Avatar
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    It never evolved beyond being about certain characters. Imagine if the MCU never gave focus bon Spider Man or Black Panther and only put them in team ups or Tony Stark/Steve Rogers films.

  7. #3052
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Just to clear Fox did a bunch of good things for the X-men Franchise. Logan is one of the best comic book movies made,Deadpool 1& 2 were good and X2 and DoFP are good movie and good adaptations source material imo. I don't want make seem like at least for me I never got joy from Fox even bad movies for men like X3 or Dark Phoenix there was some good things. I will think stop here because any more will me bashing the same dead horse. I am appreciate what Fox has done for the franchise but don't think it is unfair to be critical as a person very familiar with source material especially how they adapt it.

  8. #3053
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Why do you keep saying they didn't respect the source material? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say because I honestly can't understand why you would think someone would sink hundreds of millions of dollars (over a billion when you consider all films made) into something they don't respect, much less purchase the rights to be able to produce the movie in the first place. I mean are we really saying the don't respect the source because the team didn't rock bright yellow spandex? None of the story lines before X3 had anything to do with the cosmic side of things and by that point the grounded take had worked really well for the franchise and X3 still made the most money of the original trilogy despite being a unique spin on the Dark Phoenix story.

    Again, the Fox movies set up the industry so that movies like Iron Man could even be green lit. I just don't think it's fair to look back 20 years later and criticize choices that were made that turned out to be a major reason the MCU exists. People take the MCU seriously because the X-Men movies came out, not in spite of them.
    Half of the issues the X-Men film franchise had in the 00's was due to the fact then head of Fox now head at Sony Tom Rothman hated the genre But it made money.

  9. #3054
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OblivionX33 View Post
    Are you new to the realities of the movie industry? they do it all the time.

    Also you are being oddly dismissive of the real issue with Fox's version. Do you work there or something?
    I’m not being dismissive of anything. I’m asking questions on why people think that Fox didn’t respect the X-Men. I am plenty happy to admit the low points of the X-franchise because they definitely exist. What I am trying to understand is why quotes being taken completely out of context means that the people associated with this film don’t respect the source material. Now if you want to have a civil discussion like Killerbee91 and I are having maybe we can continue but I don’t care for emotional outbursts like this. “Do you work there or something” isn’t a constructive response, it’s you trying to negate my opinion by suggesting I have some hidden motive.

    I am curious what you think the “real issue” is with the Fox films. All Fox did was offer their take on the X-Men. Whether you enjoy it or not is completely up to you and you are entitled to however you feel. I enjoyed the Fox X-Men movies just like I enjoy the MCU. There can’t be a right or wrong in this situation it’s literally all opinions.
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  10. #3055
    Spectacular Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelossik View Post
    Spiderman 1 was in development before X-men 1 hit theathers. Sam Raimi was attached to it before X-men had premiere. This movie earned more than X-men 1 and 2 combined.

    .
    MCU movies are not similar to the Raimi movies, the sharp contrast between them is the reason MCU spiderman can't get out of the shadows of Raimi. Spiderman earned more because Sony handled the marketing differently from Fox.

    Kinberg doesn't respect the source material (Except Magneto). Kinberg believes than Dark Phoenix is Logan and Jean love story.

    “If you know the Dark Phoenix story, you’d want to really service the love story between Logan and Jean,” Kinberg said. “And I think the notion of Hugh Jackman, as great as he looks for his age, and Sophie Turner — it didn’t sit well with me. Or anyone else!”
    https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/wolverin...qqJ65yjSDXWm31

    If Jackman would be younger then we would have another dark phoenix adaptation without Cyclops.

    I don't think that You must respect something if You want to earn money using it.
    This is true. Kinberg had a lack of understanding. As for Singer, he had one aspect of understanding but Singer was a director with experience. He already made movies about the similar social commentary of X-Men. Kinberg was not experienced.

  11. #3056
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Just to clear Fox did a bunch of good things for the X-men Franchise. Logan is one of the best comic book movies made,Deadpool 1& 2 were good and X2 and DoFP are good movie and good adaptations source material imo. I don't want make seem like at least for me I never got joy from Fox even bad movies for men like X3 or Dark Phoenix there was some good things. I will think stop here because any more will me bashing the same dead horse. I am appreciate what Fox has done for the franchise but don't think it is unfair to be critical as a person very familiar with source material especially how they adapt it.
    Your previous post cleared up what I think was our disconnect. When I heard the phrase ďdonít respectĒ I thought you meant that they didnít like the material at all and were trying to make a quick dollar. It seems to me now that you meant you wouldíve like to have seen other dynamics highlighted in the films besides the minority metaphor.

    While I canít argue that the minority metaphor wasnít the major theme I would say focus was given to the family aspect of the X-Men in later films.

    I also interpreted Singerís quote about 2 dimensional characters very differently than you I think. To me I read that quote as Singer was afraid the actors and producers wouldnít respect the characters enough, not that he thought they were 2 dimensional himself. Although if we revisit comics from the 90ís there are a lot of reasons one would think the genre was a write off. The xtreme era did not age well. I think thatís why we got adaptations of Fod Loves, Man Kills instead of Xícutionerís Song.
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  12. #3057
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro 216 View Post
    It never evolved beyond being about certain characters. Imagine if the MCU never gave focus bon Spider Man or Black Panther and only put them in team ups or Tony Stark/Steve Rogers films.
    Fox gave plenty of Focus to Xavier, Magneto, Deadpool and Mystique as well. I will admit the MCU has been able to highlight more than 5 characters but they also have had the luxury of having Disney backing them and with that came a lot more money than Fox could have ever hoped for, in turn that means they were able to make way more movies even though they started 8 years later. I would also say Tony Stark was a the sun that the MCU revolved around until Endgame. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing but the guy was around a lot.
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  13. #3058
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Your previous post cleared up what I think was our disconnect. When I heard the phrase “don’t respect” I thought you meant that they didn’t like the material at all and were trying to make a quick dollar. It seems to me now that you meant you would’ve like to have seen other dynamics highlighted in the films besides the minority metaphor.

    While I can’t argue that the minority metaphor wasn’t the major theme I would say focus was given to the family aspect of the X-Men in later films.

    I also interpreted Singer’s quote about 2 dimensional characters very differently than you I think. To me I read that quote as Singer was afraid the actors and producers wouldn’t respect the characters enough, not that he thought they were 2 dimensional himself. Although if we revisit comics from the 90’s there are a lot of reasons one would think the genre was a write off. The xtreme era did not age well. I think that’s why we got adaptations of Fod Loves, Man Kills instead of X’cutioner’s Song.
    It is a lot more things the than minority metaphor but like said we have beat that horse to death. Just like I have told people to move on about their complaining about how the MCU is not going to be Fox, We have who have been complaining about aspects of Fox X-men also got to move on. Every once a while the complaining is going to slip out because the movies should have easily been better imo




    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Fox gave plenty of Focus to Xavier, Magneto, Deadpool and Mystique as well. I will admit the MCU has been able to highlight more than 5 characters but they also have had the luxury of having Disney backing them and with that came a lot more money than Fox could have ever hoped for, in turn that means they were able to make way more movies even though they started 8 years later. I would also say Tony Stark was a the sun that the MCU revolved around until Endgame. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing but the guy was around a lot.
    Just like Wolverine is the Sun for the X-men. People don't realize that is not an issue that is how it is in the comics mostly. Iron Man should be feature heavily, Wolverine should be featured heavily. The problem is right behind of Wolverine, Cyclops is featured just as much and Storm is up there. And for the MCU they got it right that Captian America was the second most important character and at times the most important one. The X-men easily have a parallel in Wolverine, Cyclops, and Storm and Iron Man, Captian America, and Thor. Marvel nailed their trio and Fox didn't.

    That is what is exciting going forward about the MCU Cyclops, Wolverine, Storm, and Beast if the MCU gets them right the X-men will be successful. X-men in print and animation has mostly been the journey of these four characters

  14. #3059
    Spectacular Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Fox gave plenty of Focus to Xavier, Magneto, Deadpool and Mystique as well. I will admit the MCU has been able to highlight more than 5 I would also say Tony Stark was a the sun that the MCU revolved around until Endgame. Iím not saying thatís a bad thing but the guy was around a lot.
    There is a suggestion that MCU should give X-men characters individual movies first to avoid focusing on certain characters. I don't think it is necessary, what should be done is to rotate characters.


    characters but they also have had the luxury of having Disney backing them and with that came a lot more money than Fox could have ever hoped for, in turn that means they were able to make way more movies even though they started 8 years later.
    When Disney is backing you, if you are as bad as captain marvel, you can avoid the fate of dark phoenix, super girl, green lantern and Electra.


    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Just to clear Fox did a bunch of good things for the X-men Franchise. Logan is one of the best comic book movies made,Deadpool 1& 2 were good and X2 and DoFP are good movie and good adaptations source material imo. I don't want make seem like at least for me I never got joy from Fox even bad movies for men like X3 or Dark Phoenix there was some good things. I will think stop here because any more will me bashing the same dead horse. I am appreciate what Fox has done for the franchise but don't think it is unfair to be critical as a person very familiar with source material especially how they adapt it.
    Its a dead horse for sure, some of us are talking here as if fox can still make more movies. MCU will never higher Kinberg for anything again. As MCU takes over, what can MCU throw in to topple the high points of the original series. At this moment the answer is nothing , unless they change their structure.If any X-Men movie were released now , following the structure of far from home, captain marvel or endgame, I don't think any of us here would be calling it the greatest xmen movie known to mankind. There has to be an understanding of the various types of mistakes.

    After Batman and Robin, what was it that set Nolan and Warner brothers apart from the current structure of MCU to make Batman rise again? what is setting Spiderverse apart? Whatever you think it is, is what X-Men needs for another reboot.

  15. #3060
    Astonishing Member Celestial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Fox gave plenty of Focus to Xavier, Magneto, Deadpool and Mystique as well. I will admit the MCU has been able to highlight more than 5 characters but they also have had the luxury of having Disney backing them and with that came a lot more money than Fox could have ever hoped for, in turn that means they were able to make way more movies even though they started 8 years later. I would also say Tony Stark was a the sun that the MCU revolved around until Endgame. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing but the guy was around a lot.
    Disney backing the MCU is not an excuse. Fox is not some small company. They had 20 years to focus on other characters and they never did. Xavier, magneto, Deadpool, and Mystique are not characters that I want X-Men movies to be about. Tony was definitely front and center but I feel like I know more about rocket and groot than I do about storm and cyclops.

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