“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[kjn]

Truth. I love King's Batman and I've loved Heroes in Crisis but I'm not keen on spending a lot of time posting about that in a sea of negativity about both series'.

As a regular on the Wonder Woman board, I can definitely sympathise (Gaelforce had to update the forum rules, it was so bad). That's why at least I try to be clear in articulating why and how I don't like something, point out the things that I think work or find good, and avoid sweeping statements. And try to limit my posts with negative judgments to as few as possible.

I like to think I manage at least some success in that. But even well-behaved expressions of negative opinions can become overwhelming if there is a flood of them from different people.

[MajorHoy]

I was kinda hoping more of a lowdown on who has died, who has experienced character assassination, etc.?

Well, for that you'd need to talk to people who have bothered to buy / read this series.

Too many red flags for my taste even before the first issue came out, so I haven't invested in it beyond reading what's on the boards and such.

[sakuyamons]

I will say that through this mini I've enjoyed Harley's character more than I have on her solo series.......that's a positive for King I guess.

[Frontier]

I will say that through this mini I've enjoyed Harley's character more than I have on her solo series.......that's a positive for King I guess.

I dunno. So much of what I've read about Harley in this, and looking at how they treated Wally...it just feels so disingenuous.

[AnakinFlair]

As someone who isn't reading this and isn't likely to ever read this, anyone mind spoiling the story so far for me? I'm interested to know what all the hate and commotion is about.

Wally goes crazy and kills Roy Harper, Poison Ivy, and a bunch of Z-listers, then time travels to cover it up by making it look like either Harley Quinn or Booster Gold did it.

Makes me long for the heady days of Cry for Justice.

[married guy]

Wally goes crazy and kills Roy Harper, Poison Ivy, and a bunch of Z-listers, then time travels to cover it up by making it look like either Harley Quinn or Booster Gold did it.

Makes me long for the heady days of Cry for Justice.

No can someone PLEASE tell me, does ANYTHING in that sentence sound like the Wally West character who has been in publication for nearly 60 ****ING years???!!!
The logic leaps and plot holes in this story are just SO insane - unless King pulls a MAJOR rabbit out of his arse, I don't see how anything in this story works on ANY level.

[BohemiaDrinker]

No can someone PLEASE tell me, does ANYTHING in that sentence sound like the Wally West character who has been in publication for nearly 60 ****ING years???!!!
The logic leaps and plot holes in this story are just SO insane - unless King pulls a MAJOR rabbit out of his arse, I don't see how anything in this story works on ANY level.

It's not only that. There are some specific sequences that directly negate stuff that was core to the character.

Shit like "the speed force is a burden".

This story managed what Dan has been trying for over a decade: it broke the character. Flash Rebirth demoted him, that peacemaker BS further demoted him retroactively, but this... This made Wally no longer Wally. Even if he manages to survive this story, the damage is too big and too contradictory to who the character was. There's no fixing this without a retcon.

[Vakanai]

Start from page one of this thread and just keep reading - it's all there.

A nearly 200 page thread? It'd be easier reading the book. Meh.

[Vakanai]

Wally goes crazy and kills Roy Harper, Poison Ivy, and a bunch of Z-listers, then time travels to cover it up by making it look like either Harley Quinn or Booster Gold did it.

Makes me long for the heady days of Cry for Justice.

They killed Poison Ivy? Damn. Well, no way that's going to last.

So, does it seem like they'll blame Wally going crazy on some plot device like reality getting toyed with or a Parrallax (or however you spell it) situation? Or does some Wally hater (Didio) figure making him a villain is a good way to remove him?

[kjn]

They killed Poison Ivy? Damn. Well, no way that's going to last.

Yup. She was resurrected in #7 into a pure innocent vessel to witness Wally's absolution and death.

Which I find even more distasteful than killing her in the first place. It is directly going against the theme for Poison Ivy that has been developing for a long time: where she is in reaction against men's violence against nature, against nature, against children, and against herself. Her path of redemption has been lined with her protecting and reaching out to victims of the same. King's act of wiping her the slate clean and making her pure is a supreme act of violence against her entire history as a character.

[Confuzzled]

Yup. She was resurrected in #7 into a pure innocent vessel to witness Wally's absolution and death.

Which I find even more distasteful than killing her in the first place. It is directly going against the theme for Poison Ivy that has been developing for a long time: where she is in reaction against men's violence against nature, against nature, against children, and against herself. Her path of redemption has been lined with her protecting and reaching out to victims of the same. King's act of wiping her the slate clean and making her pure is a supreme act of violence against her entire history as a character.

Well, I guess it's too early to say it's a clean slate. We don't know how much of Pamela Isley's consciousness exists in this rebirthed Ivy.

Not too much of a fan of the new design that seems to be a green plant variant of Mystique from Fox's live action X-Men movies. It looked great when Clay Mann drew it in the last issue. In this issue? Not so much (the New 52-esque Ivy drawn by the same artist in the same issue looked much better).

[kjn]

Well, I guess it's too early to say it's a clean slate. We don't know how much of Pamela Isley's consciousness exists in this rebirthed Ivy.

I can only go with what is said by her:

"You… helped me… Why… are you… sorry?"
"I don't… understand… what will… I see?"

Or the way she is positioned on page 18 of #8, placed in the position of the supportive woman to Wally West.

If there is none (or very little) of old Poison Ivy's consciousness in the new Poison Ivy, then she has been killed, except DC wants to keep her corpse around because it's pretty and sells merchandise.

If the old Poison Ivy consciousness is still there, then if DC attempts to position her as a hero, then she has been absolved by the act of a man's violence against her.

To be frank, the only non-distasteful way out for DC how to present Poison Ivy if they keep Heroes in Crisis around is to make her go full-on supervillainess. Which brings its own huge slew of troubles and issues.

[Confuzzled]

I can only go with what is said by her:

"You… helped me… Why… are you… sorry?"
"I don't… understand… what will… I see?"

Or the way she is positioned on page 18 of #8, placed in the position of the supportive woman to Wally West.

But that doesn't really prove she doesn't have Pam's memories (except for the very end where she may not remember that she died because of Wally; and the issue showed that the deaths happened far more abruptly and instantaneously than we were led to believe).

Regarding the absolving her for her sins part, King had already done that in last year's Everyone Loves Ivy arc where Batman declared she was NOT a villain. And a vague indication was made that the Rebirth version of Ivy may not have actually killed anyone. Characterization wise, this resurrected Ivy doesn't seem too far off from King's previous depiction of her.

[kjn]

But that doesn't really prove she doesn't have Pam's memories (except for the very end where she may not remember that she died because of Wally; and the issue showed that the deaths happened far more abruptly and instantaneously than we were led to believe).

If she has her old memories doesn't really matter here, because I view it to be about the role that Poison Ivy plays in this story, and that is of first a victim and then as the innocent, passive, and empty witness.

And like I outlined in my previous post, all of the paths forward for the character that I can see right now are fraught with problematic and damaging implications.

[Confuzzled]

And like I outlined in my previous post, all of the paths forward for the character that I can see right now are fraught with problematic and damaging implications.

I still think it's too early to call that considering we don't know how the events in HiC will affect Ivy going forward. I think the emphasis was more on giving Ivy a physiological change as there have been rumblings to make her the new Avatar of the Green. Rather than giving her a characterization makeover (which as I have said, King had already written her as a troubled and misunderstood "innocent" in his Everyone Loves Ivy arc and during her confessions in HiC, so the shift isn't as jarring as say killing off a traditionally villainous Ivy and replacing her with an innocent and kind being).