“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[Agent Z]

For me, the problem with the premise of this story is the same as when they had Wonder Woman kill Max Lord. Your trying to bring real world logic into a system that simply does cannot accommodate it with any semblance of logic.

To expand - WW kills Max Lord because he controls Superman and is dangerous. If he is allowed to kill Superman, untold lives could be lost. It's too risky to let him live so - snap! Problem solved.

Okay, reasonable this actually seems to make sense.

Except, you are killing Max after he killed one person [Ted Kord] and could kill more. But the Joker, who HAS killed... what? Hundreds. Thousands now? That loon escapes from custory like clockwork and he gets to live? Not to mention three issues later Wonder Woman found Cheethah standing over the bodies of a dozen security officers and didn't kill her. Say what now?

This is what I mean. You apply real world logic to Max, but comic book logic to other characters simply because they are better sellers. The rules cannot accommodate real world logic without the whole system looking hypocritical and frankly ridiculous.

Now jump to Heroes in Crisis. Super beings with the power of gods suffering from PTSD? Reasonable, sure, based on all the crap they go through [especially lately when it has to suck to be a superhero] but for me it just doesn't hold up. People are nervous about putting a police officer with a gun back on the street in those circumstances, and these some of these guys are tank battalions on legs.

All this does is highlight the massively ridiculous premise on which comics have to rely for willing suspension of disbelief. And when its over, it will all be forgotten. Because it HAS TO BE for the comic 'reality' to survive.

Ted wasn't the only person Max had killed. He'd also murdered numerous Checkmate agents that tried to oppose him.

[brettc1]

Ted wasn't the only person Max had killed. He'd also murdered numerous Checkmate agents that tried to oppose him.

Maybe. Come back to me when his body count is anywhere close to the Joker, Cheetah, Killer Croc, Oceanmaster, Ultraman...

Regardless of statistical hair splitting, the point remains the same. Max didn't do anything worse than dozens of other DC villains who don't get killed for it. Wonder Woman let her off with handcuffs only issues later. Because you can kill Max Lord, but Cheetah is too important a villain for that.

Which is where these 'reality based' stories fall apart.

[Agent Z]

Maybe. Come back to me when his body count is anywhere close to the Joker, Cheetah, Killer Croc, Oceanmaster, Ultraman...

Regardless of statistical hair splitting, the point remains the same. Max didn't do anything worse than dozens of other DC villains who don't get killed for it. Wonder Woman let her off with handcuffs only issues later. Because you can kill Max Lord, but Cheetah is too important a villain for that.

Which is where these 'reality based' stories fall apart.

The characters you listed have either had people gunning for them or weren't considered dangerous enough to be put down. There are definitely one too many murders with triple digit or higher body counts running around the DCU but that doesn't mean killing Max wasn't the right decision. Max was just unfortunate enough to not have another superhero protecting him.

[WallyWestFlash]

For me, the problem with the premise of this story is the same as when they had Wonder Woman kill Max Lord. Your trying to bring real world logic into a system that simply does cannot accommodate it with any semblance of logic.

To expand - WW kills Max Lord because he controls Superman and is dangerous. If he is allowed to kill Superman, untold lives could be lost. It's too risky to let him live so - snap! Problem solved.

Okay, reasonable this actually seems to make sense.

Except, you are killing Max after he killed one person [Ted Kord] and could kill more. But the Joker, who HAS killed... what? Hundreds. Thousands now? That loon escapes from custory like clockwork and he gets to live? Not to mention three issues later Wonder Woman found Cheethah standing over the bodies of a dozen security officers and didn't kill her. Say what now?

This is what I mean. You apply real world logic to Max, but comic book logic to other characters simply because they are better sellers. The rules cannot accommodate real world logic without the whole system looking hypocritical and frankly ridiculous.

Now jump to Heroes in Crisis. Super beings with the power of gods suffering from PTSD? Reasonable, sure, based on all the crap they go through [especially lately when it has to suck to be a superhero] but for me it just doesn't hold up. People are nervous about putting a police officer with a gun back on the street in those circumstances, and these some of these guys are tank battalions on legs.

All this does is highlight the massively ridiculous premise on which comics have to rely for willing suspension of disbelief. And when its over, it will all be forgotten. Because it HAS TO BE for the comic 'reality' to survive.

I agree with most of what you said.

With that being said, in real life, from a law enforcement perspective, police officers are taught to use lethal force when there is a present and immediate threat to life or serious injury.

Key word is immediate danger. Meaning if someone is holding a gun to someone's head or charging them with a knife lethal force is authorized and even mandatory to preserve life.

But if you walk into a room and there is a murderer standing over a bunch of dead bodies you can't use lethal force.

So when Wonder Woman found Cheetah had already killed the security guards she wouldn't kill her on the spot. But when Max has Superman in his present control and states that he will use to kill right now there is an immediate danger to human life so Diana was right to kill him.

They are not exactly alike to reality and as you said it's hard to apply the same rules but I think in this situation it can make sense.

[phantom1592]

I agree with most of what you said.

With that being said, in real life, from a law enforcement perspective, police officers are taught to use lethal force when there is a present and immediate threat to life or serious injury.

Key word is immediate danger. Meaning if someone is holding a gun to someone's head or charging them with a knife lethal force is authorized and even mandatory to preserve life.

But if you walk into a room and there is a murderer standing over a bunch of dead bodies you can't use lethal force.

So when Wonder Woman found Cheetah had already killed the security guards she wouldn't kill her on the spot. But when Max has Superman in his present control and states that he will use to kill right now there is an immediate danger to human life so Diana was right to kill him.

They are not exactly alike to reality and as you said it's hard to apply the same rules but I think in this situation it can make sense.

Something should be said about the fact that Max was already captured and restrained and under Wonder Woman's control at the time and was basically executed. It's more akin to Cheetah being in handcuffs talking about how 'when she gets out she'll make everyone pay!!!'

Anyone wrapped up in WW's lasso is not 'an immediate threat'. Battle is over. She was just being 'proactive' about future threats. Which of course brings back the hypocrisy when dealing with much more established killers.

[Dred]

Technically, at the time, Max Lord was controlling Superman to harm others. Though it's not like the hero community couldn't subdue Superman once Lord was in check.

[Agent Z]

Something should be said about the fact that Max was already captured and restrained and under Wonder Woman's control at the time and was basically executed. It's more akin to Cheetah being in handcuffs talking about how 'when she gets out she'll make everyone pay!!!'

Anyone wrapped up in WW's lasso is not 'an immediate threat'. Battle is over. She was just being 'proactive' about future threats. Which of course brings back the hypocrisy when dealing with much more established killers.

Technically, at the time, Max Lord was controlling Superman to harm others. Though it's not like the hero community couldn't subdue Superman once Lord was in check.

Yeah but he wasn't in check at the time. He could still control Superman even while wrapped in the Lasso as he displayed. And while getting more heroes would have stopped Superman, it would have taken far longer and likely caused more casualties as Max wanted. Diana made the decision that ended the threat quicker and with less bloodshed and collateral damage.

[byrd156]

For me, the problem with the premise of this story is the same as when they had Wonder Woman kill Max Lord. Your trying to bring real world logic into a system that simply does cannot accommodate it with any semblance of logic.

To expand - WW kills Max Lord because he controls Superman and is dangerous. If he is allowed to kill Superman, untold lives could be lost. It's too risky to let him live so - snap! Problem solved.

Okay, reasonable this actually seems to make sense.

Except, you are killing Max after he killed one person [Ted Kord] and could kill more. But the Joker, who HAS killed... what? Hundreds. Thousands now? That loon escapes from custory like clockwork and he gets to live? Not to mention three issues later Wonder Woman found Cheethah standing over the bodies of a dozen security officers and didn't kill her. Say what now?

This is what I mean. You apply real world logic to Max, but comic book logic to other characters simply because they are better sellers. The rules cannot accommodate real world logic without the whole system looking hypocritical and frankly ridiculous.

Now jump to Heroes in Crisis. Super beings with the power of gods suffering from PTSD? Reasonable, sure, based on all the crap they go through [especially lately when it has to suck to be a superhero] but for me it just doesn't hold up. People are nervous about putting a police officer with a gun back on the street in those circumstances, and these some of these guys are tank battalions on legs.

All this does is highlight the massively ridiculous premise on which comics have to rely for willing suspension of disbelief. And when its over, it will all be forgotten. Because it HAS TO BE for the comic 'reality' to survive.

This is why I find the idea that people think DC's appeal is realism and dark and realism is so strange. It ruins the brand, the characters, the history, the feel of the universe for what? A chance to tell one single story. That's the biggest sin of all for stories like HiC, they destroy more than they create.

[Dred]

Yeah but he wasn't in check at the time. He could still control Superman even while wrapped in the Lasso as he displayed. And while getting more heroes would have stopped Superman, it would have taken far longer and likely caused more casualties as Max wanted. Diana made the decision that ended the threat quicker and with less bloodshed and collateral damage.

Diana had just incapacitated Clark. It's why she could sit there, talking to Max, using the Lasso on him. If Clark wasn't incapacitated he would be beating Diana up under Lord's influence. Diana had Clark beaten (because Clark couldn't fight her optimally thinking she was Doomsday, and Wonder Woman can take down a less than 100% Superman). All Diana had to do was knock Lord out and she'd be free to tie up Clark and seek help.

Diana does not and has not killed far worse people doing far worse things than Lord was at the time. It strains all plausibility. The scene was created entirely to have Diana kill someone and nothing else. That was the goal and that's a bad goal to have, when you twist a story to get an outcome rather than write the characters.

[brettc1]

Bludhaven was wiped out by super villains.

Cyborg Superman murdered Coast City.

Prometheus killed ten thousand people and Oliver Queen was the only one with stones enough to stop him doing it again.

Ocean Master murdered thousands more when he flooded the east coast in Throne of Atlantis.

Darkseid wars. Amazons Attack. Anti-matter hordes. Trigon Invasions. Tower of Babel. Final Crisis. The list goes on and on and on.

REALISTICALLY, in the DCU, EVERY HUMAN BEING THE THE USA should be suffering ptsd. Gotham is a hell hole that’s been quaked and ruled over by homicidal cultists. Even low level villains regularly turn up and turn neighbourhoods into war zones.

If you are a regular person the DCU your whole life is nothing but waiting around to learn when your going to be driven insane by evil gods from another dimension, or have your home destroyed by rampaging armies, or killed by the Joker just for kicks.

THATS the reality of the DCU. The HEROES are the lucky ones, because at least they have a chance.

If you’re going to have a REALISTIC story about PTSD on DC Earth, it’s ridiculous to ignore the trauma of the people who live their lives as helpless cannon fodder waiting their turn for horror.

[WallyWestFlash]

Bludhaven was wiped out by super villains.

Cyborg Superman murdered Coast City.

Prometheus killed ten thousand people and Oliver Queen was the only one with stones enough to stop him doing it again.

Ocean Master murdered thousands more when he flooded the east coast in Throne of Atlantis.

Darkseid wars. Amazons Attack. Anti-matter hordes. Trigon Invasions. Tower of Babel. Final Crisis. The list goes on and on and on.

REALISTICALLY, in the DCU, EVERY HUMAN BEING THE THE USA should be suffering ptsd. Gotham is a hell hole that’s been quaked and ruled over by homicidal cultists. Even low level villains regularly turn up and turn neighbourhoods into war zones.

If you are a regular person the DCU your whole life is nothing but waiting around to learn when your going to be driven insane by evil gods from another dimension, or have your home destroyed by rampaging armies, or killed by the Joker just for kicks.

THATS the reality of the DCU. The HEROES are the lucky ones, because at least they have a chance.

If you’re going to have a REALISTIC story about PTSD on DC Earth, it’s ridiculous to ignore the trauma of the people who live their lives as helpless cannon fodder waiting their turn for horror.

Exactly.

king is like "Oh it's so cool to make heroes who have seen so much "violence" to have trauma issues cuz it's so realistic."

Ok let's go for it. But watch out for that slippery slope. You have issues like said above. As well as "realisticley" Heroes would most likely be banned, government controlled/registered, or just hated by the public. Would love to read that happy world for fun, fantasy escapism.

[Gaastra]

Didn't despero mind control superman also? To me the big thing is the joker. killed so many yet thrown back in the same place he gets out of all the time. Then when he was going to get killed for his crimes batman saves him by proving he didn't kill the one death they were going to kill him for and he got set free and killed some more! (good job batman!) Also didn't joker take over the whole world once?

[brettc1]

Exactly.

king is like "Oh it's so cool to make heroes who have seen so much "violence" to have trauma issues cuz it's so realistic."

Ok let's go for it. But watch out for that slippery slope. You have issues like said above. As well as "realisticley" Heroes would most likely be banned, government controlled/registered, or just hated by the public. Would love to read that happy world for fun, fantasy escapism.

I think it’s called Watchmen, and over the last twenty years it’s gone from being a fantastic stand-alone story to more like a scab that DC can’t stop picking at.

[skyvolt2000]

Exactly.

king is like "Oh it's so cool to make heroes who have seen so much "violence" to have trauma issues cuz it's so realistic."

Ok let's go for it. But watch out for that slippery slope. You have issues like said above. As well as "realisticley" Heroes would most likely be banned, government controlled/registered, or just hated by the public. Would love to read that happy world for fun, fantasy escapism.

Aside from you-who is going to BUY that story to where certain entitlement groups and crybaby store owners won't scream-"get this mess off the shelf!"

It's a story that would be WAYYYYYYYYYYY better than this mess. Yet the line starts to the left of those who would take issue with it. Although Marvel did this 4 times with a series called Damage Control by McDuffie.

I mean we never get to see those who support these heroes and what they deal with. How does Wayne Enterprise work with Batman gone? Who covers for him?

How do the employees of say Michael Holt's company get hired since they worked for a public hero? In fact Mr Terrific gave his company to a 20 year old kid in his New 52 book-what is HE doing? We saw one employee become a hero in Cyborg-what is Jamal doing as the CEO of the company?

What about Huntress-isn't she a teacher? How does she make THAT work? You only get 10 personal days a year during the school year.

Supergirl is in space and her boyfriend is chilling with Titans-how is their absences being explained at their JOB & SCHOOL? It was never explained why Ben lives by himself and away from his parents.

You have enough material to do a long running series.

[Vanguard-01]

Didn't despero mind control superman also?

Max Lord explicitly said that what he did to Superman wasn't "garden variety" mind control. He basically rewired Superman's brain in a process that took him YEARS.

He claimed it was impossible to fix him so long as Max lived. He also said that he would always be able to control Superman for the rest of his life. Even if Lord were imprisoned and kept in a medically induced coma, all he would need is one brief second of clarity and he could have Superman strafing cities.

He said all this while under the influence of the Lasso, which is why Diana accepted it as a given. Considering Diana had a previous Justice League story in which she doubted the Lasso, the Lasso unraveled, and the entire concept of truth vanished from the world, it makes sense that she decided to believe the Lasso without hesitation.

Now, that said? This all feeds into Brett's realism argument, which I agree with. Just because you CAN dream up a plausible scenario in which Wonder Woman summarily executes a defenseless man doesn't mean that story needs to be told.