“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[Pohzee]

Please tell me, just when exactly has Batman displayed any sign of elation or contentment in these 48 or so issues? You're just taking King's words at face value. He talked about happiness a year ago in some interview and that's that. There's nothing joyous and feel good about any arc King has written since the engagament. There's no happiness to speak of.

If Batman is the broken man attemptinf to find happiness, then he isn’t going to be sunshine’s and rainbows all the way. This is something he’s struggling with. The marriage is a attemp at happiness, but we’re only halfway through King’s run, so we may find that this attempt is not the right one.

[ed2962]

From my perspective, it's not that it's hard to believe that it would have happened, it's about the fact that once a writer decides to introduce that into what is meant to be a connected, serialized universe, it becomes impossible to not address it going forward unless you undermine the whole premise of this "super-hero universe" where the threats are fantastical. It's like the old black guy asking GL what he 's done for the brown skins -- he saved the world is what he's done! Either the DCU heroes are actively fighting against social injustices like rape or genocide or they're unfeeling jerks who are out of touch with real people. "Identity Crisis" was just wrong-headed from the get-go, imo.

Superman spoke out against racism and saved the world at that point. How come GL couldn't have done both?



I'm being a little facetious, but....

[The Dying Detective]

From my perspective, it's not that it's hard to believe that it would have happened, it's about the fact that once a writer decides to introduce that into what is meant to be a connected, serialized universe, it becomes impossible to not address it going forward unless you undermine the whole premise of this "super-hero universe" where the threats are fantastical. It's like the old black guy asking GL what he 's done for the brown skins -- he saved the world is what he's done! Either the DCU heroes are actively fighting against social injustices like rape or genocide or they're unfeeling jerks who are out of touch with real people. "Identity Crisis" was just wrong-headed from the get-go, imo.

I have to side with this because superheroes have been doing social commentary for years already what's another going to hurt I know peope are wary of King but give it a chance before dismissing it.

[SiegePerilous02]

"needless"

how can you say what is and isn't needless in a story? it's not your story...

a supervillain raping someone (why is that hard to believe?) and heroes having an ethical disagreement on how to handle it...and the consequences of it all was the entire story.

It's not hard to imagine a super villain raping someone, but did we get to see much of how it impacted Sue herself, AKA the actual victim? Not really, she was just a prop who needed suffering inflicted on her so her husband and the JL members could experience man pain. It has nothing to do with her later murder. It's inflicting violence on a female character without sparing any actual thoughts towards her, which is cliche as hell. It wasn't handled in a nuanced manner.

So mindwipes and rapes are needless but no superhero should be immune from being a murder suspect? You do realize that there is no consistency to these thoughts. You're defending creative freedom and then sanctioning it.

Well, if they are a murder suspect and announced as such in the solicitations for a murder mystery, that pretty much guarantees they won't be the murderer. Why have a murder mystery and then announce that it is for sure one of these people? You have to see how that it is different from definitely turning a character (hero or villain) into a rapist and having them victimize one of their teammates via messing with their minds, right? Where is the inconsistency here?

Defending creative freedom is not the same as being unwilling to judge the final product once its complete. We know how Meltzer wrote his story, and it sucked. We have no idea how this will be executed until we read the whole thing. Declaring that it sucks before it will be released or saying it shouldn't be done period without seeing the execution is nonsense.

[Kaijudo]

So mindwipes and rapes are needless but no superhero should be immune from being a murder suspect? You do realize that there is no consistency to these thoughts. You're defending creative freedom and then sanctioning it.

Within the confines of IDENTITY CRISIS, they absolutely were. The entire mystery was essentially Jean Lorring killing Sue Dibny to get Ray Palmer to notice/care about her again (which, viewed in modern terms, is a HORRIBLE motivation). A murder mystery needs red herrings, yes, but those components were completely unnecessary (especially given what we now know about how they weren't necessarily organic to the story but forced in by DC editorial at the time).

And heroes have been accused of murder almost since comics began. The transition from Barry as the Flash to Wally as the Flash was all but begun with Barry on trial for Reverse-Flash's murder. So if there's a murder at a place where superheroes go to recover, then the heroes gathered there are going to be suspects. That's not even comics, that's just real world common sense.

You're really talking apples and oranges here.

[SiegePerilous02]

Batman's been framed/suspected of crimes and murders in children's cartoons.

This isn't an idea that's completely horrible on paper. If Wally kills a bunch of people, then we will have a problem, but we know he won't.

[j9ac9k]

I have to side with this because superheroes have been doing social commentary for years already what's another going to hurt I know peope are wary of King but give it a chance before dismissing it.

I thought "Identity Crisis" was terrible but I've said many times here I will give this a shot because I like King.

[The Dying Detective]

I thought "Identity Crisis" was terrible but I've said many times here I will give this a shot because I like King.

If you judge something based on it's own merit or lack thereof it's fine. As for Heroes in Crisis I too want to give it it's fair shake. I just hope King has grown to understand more of DC's properties by now before even penning this story.

[Zero Hunter]

Interesting...not my experience with him.

Which characters in particular do you think he writes and characterizes out of character?

What he did to Booster was just wrong on every level and went against how the character has been portrayed for the last 20 years. It was like he read a few issues of the JLI and decided that Booster has not grown one bit as a character since then. Everything he did with Booster in his Batman story was just to set up this series and make Booster this messed up loser. That to me is 100% not caring a bout a character and only using him as a prop no matter how much it damages the character.

It was made even worse by the fact that Booster had just been used in Superman a few months before, and in that story Booster was the voice of reason trying to stop Superman from messing up the time line. That story showed Booster taking his job as a guardian of time seriously no matter what, and then to turn around and just a few months latter he does something to stupid to mess with Batman's past as a gift?!? It was hacky writting.

[BatmanJones]

Please tell me, just when exactly has Batman displayed any sign of elation or contentment in these 48 or so issues? You're just taking King's words at face value. He talked about happiness a year ago in some interview and that's that. There's nothing joyous and feel good about any arc King has written since the engagament. There's no happiness to speak of.

No person that's been suffering from severe trauma for his entire adult life is going to jump to "elation" or even "contentment" in any short form. I said he was seeking happiness, not that he'd found it. If he were to become happy easily it would be cheap. It wouldn't be earned. And he has a lot of damage to contend with.

But we know why he proposed to Catwoman. It was so very plain. He got to see his "father" from another timeline and his father told him not to be Batman but to seek a happy life instead. Shortly after we saw him not respond to the Batsignal and we all knew it was because of what his father had told him. Shortly thereafter he opened up Catwoman in a way he never has and has been vulnerable with her in a way he's never been with any Robin or Alfred or Gordon or Superman or any character at all.

He is absolutely seeking happiness for the first time ever. Still, like many depressed or otherwise emotionally troubled people, it won't come easy to him.

I highly disagree that there's been nothing joyous or feel good in the series. When you suffer from severe depression and trauma (as I do btw) joy comes slowly and in small doses, but if it's happening in even the smallest ways one is on a road to recovery.

Bruce Wayne has stubbornly chosen his mission to the exclusion of any chance at happiness for 80 years or for 50 years (if you count the whimsical Silver Age version of the character to have been happy - he certainly smiled a lot and his trauma wasn't part of the foundation of the character that was very like Adam West's successful take on a Batman whose parents were never mentioned as having been murdered) and this is the first time he's trying.

I remember the first time I tried. The first time I visited a therapist after stubbornly avoiding therapy like the plague until I was about 40. When I finally went in I couldn't even talk for the first several months and I didn't experience joy until I had had years and years of treatment and even then it was fleeting.

That doesn't mean I'm not seeking it. Batman is too. Thanks to King. No other writer has ever tried anything like this with the character.

[Nick Miller]

Batman has not been suffering severe trauma his whole adult life. Nor has he suffered depression, not clinically anyway. He did try to kill himself, but we can ignore that awful King story.

And, no King is not doing anything special in regards to that.

Batman carries a burden, sure. But he still lives a rich and rewarding life.

[Nick Miller]

Please tell me, just when exactly has Batman displayed any sign of elation or contentment in these 48 or so issues? You're just taking King's words at face value. He talked about happiness a year ago in some interview and that's that. There's nothing joyous and feel good about any arc King has written since the engagament. There's no happiness to speak of.

He was miserable at the carnival with Clark and Lois.

Batman is happiest when he stops a mugger, protects his bat family, and saves Gotham.

Chasing Selina, only ever frustrated him, he knows he can’t have a life outside fighting crime.

As long as he is brooding and the Dark Knight, he can be with Selina. But take that away, and you don’t have Batman.

[Armor of God]

If Batman is the broken man attemptinf to find happiness, then he isn’t going to be sunshine’s and rainbows all the way. This is something he’s struggling with. The marriage is a attemp at happiness, but we’re only halfway through King’s run, so we may find that this attempt is not the right one.

So in other words King can just write a miserable Batman all the way to issue 100 and yet his supporters will defend it as an attempt to write happy Batman because he was "struggling with happiness" which showed via his sadness.
And these last 20 plus issues have been decompressed filler anyway. King has no story to tell, he's wasting time ,talking a big game and that's all there is to it.

[Armor of God]

Within the confines of IDENTITY CRISIS, they absolutely were. The entire mystery was essentially Jean Lorring killing Sue Dibny to get Ray Palmer to notice/care about her again (which, viewed in modern terms, is a HORRIBLE motivation). A murder mystery needs red herrings, yes, but those components were completely unnecessary (especially given what we now know about how they weren't necessarily organic to the story but forced in by DC editorial at the time).

And heroes have been accused of murder almost since comics began. The transition from Barry as the Flash to Wally as the Flash was all but begun with Barry on trial for Reverse-Flash's murder. So if there's a murder at a place where superheroes go to recover, then the heroes gathered there are going to be suspects. That's not even comics, that's just real world common sense.

You're really talking apples and oranges here.

Its not apples and oranges. In order for murder suspects to exist there need to be murders. King is going to go on a "needless" murder spree very soon.

[dietrich]

So in other words King can just write a miserable Batman all the way to issue 100 and yet his supporters will defend it as an attempt to write happy Batman because he was "struggling with happiness" which showed via his sadness.
And these last 20 plus issues have been decompressed filler anyway. King has no story to tell, he's wasting time ,talking a big game and that's all there is to it.

@ Amour of God I feel you don't understand King's writing. This Batman is very human. We know that he is actively seeking happiness for the 1st time ever because Tom King told us. Seeing his father left him with the feels, GG helped him see that he wasn't really happy so in an attempt to fix it he is marrying Selina but not before telling her a story about how he is not all just some confident BatGod who never makes mistakes. When she saw how sensitive, fallible and HUMAN he was she said yes.

Bats might seem miserable but he is actively trying to be happy. We know this because King said and because he is getting married. See