“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[byrd156]

The only time Roy relapsed was Rise of Arsenal.

What a dumb story.

[byrd156]

Thank you for your posts in this thread.

The only reason people are calling a trauma center "grim dark" is because of the stigma surrounding mental and emotional health. Someone posted a ways back about how they didn't want their heroes to need a trauma center because heroes shouldn't be "weak." Or some equally insulting word.

If a hero is meant to soldier on through emotional health issues they shouldn't have any trouble with two broken legs either. Physical health is not more serious or more real than mental health.

Thank goodness for Tom King who, having been in the CIA, knows something about real heroes (soldiers for example) suffering real trauma and is sensitive enough to introduce a concept like Sanctuary to the DCU.

One day the stigma that surrounds mental and emotional health will be overcome but we're nowhere near that day when someone calls a "hero" weak (or anything like it) for seeking help recovering from trauma.

The reason I associate with dark with the story is what DC has said about the story while promoting it.

Wanting it to be Identity Crisis 2.0 which ruined the satellite era of the JL.

Promoting a story with death, who is a murder?, etc.

I love the mental health idea because its a great concept and I'm hopeful but I feel that the idea of a hero is going to be dragged through the mud and not have a positive message about being one. I've always thought of DC as the heroes we aspire to be while Marvel heroes deal with more "real" problems and are more relatable. A chance to see how these icons really feel can be a wondrous and inspiring thing but like I said I'm a little worried about how this message gets through.

[SiegePerilous02]

They should just use original characters for this story then so they don't have to deal with people being like "Why the hell would I wan't to read about Batman having depression?"

If they used original characters nobody would give a ****.

It should be easy to ignore the fans complaining about Batman's depression and other issues, because they are clearly not very familiar with many Batman stories from the past couple decades.

[Frontier]

Roy doesn’t average many stories a year. The stories he does get have involved his addiction in one form or another. That’s his cycle. He gets clean, but he doesn’t stay clean. Or it’s about the temption. My point is, it always comes back. So I don’t see how one could say he has moved beyond his addition issues when it’s still defines many of his stories.

Compared to Donna and Garth or Wally in the last decade I'd say he's done pretty well as far as being consistently shown in stories or team books.

Obviously his issues with addiction is a major part of Roy's character, but usually when written right it's about him persevering and moving on from it. Addiction is a lifelong struggle.

Roy’s not really a success story. He’s a tragic character, and he doesn’t really have a lot going for him right now. Him dying while trying to get help would just make his tragic story all that more tragic.

I think there's been enough good in his life and enough he's been able to achieve as a character to say he's a success story, especially compared to his mentor.

DC ruined a lot of that, but they've always seemed to have it out for Roy.

People complain about characters getting killed but I bet every month DC kills a named character and the outrage is mute because someone either doesn't care or doesn't know it happened.
Roy or Kyle getting killed now is kinda like that
They are pretty much wallpaper until someone does something with them.

I don't think even DC is bad enough to where they're killing off major named characters practically every month .

If they used original characters nobody would give a ****.

Well, if they were using original characters, I would imagine the point would be to get audiences invested in them, especially since they allow for more freedom for the writers then with the A-list characters.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, if they were using original characters, I would imagine the point would be to get audiences invested in them, especially since they allow for more freedom for the writers then with the A-list characters.

It's not as much of a draw though. I don't think King is popular enough to sell a comic with just his name on it without an iconic character to go with it, and as much as fandom says they want fresh ideas and new characters, I don't think they actually do.

[Agent Z]

They should just use original characters for this story then so they don't have to deal with people being like "Why the hell would I wan't to read about Batman having depression?"

CIA isn't a force for good in this world. Hey maybe they'll do a story about some superheroes working with the CIA to engineer coups around the world too.

King doesn't work for the CIA anymore. And he hasn't featured them in any of his superhero comics as far as I can tell.

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[BatmanJones]

And considering that mess, it's not exactly helping your argument regarding that crisis center not being "grim and dark".
(After all, King had the story where more people were killed by terrorists at an orphanage in Gotham City named for Thomas and Martha Wayne than were killed in our real world by the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma back in 1995!)

You don't read King's run or anything else from DC. Why are you constantly criticizing books you've only read about?

[BatmanJones]

I recall when it was announced that it was to be revealed Bruce cut himself following the deaths of his parents in King's run, people freaked out. Some posters even said he shouldn't be "weak" like that. Keep in mind they were talking about a traumatized 10 year old.

I found a lot of the reactions, particularly those ones, pretty appalling. And I do not see anything remotely grim and gritty about superheroes seeking help for trauma. it needs to be handled well and with variances depending on the characters featured, but it's not inherently a bad, nihilistic idea and in fact seems to be the opposite. We don't know how the issues will be tackled in this separate from the murder mystery. Once the mystery is solved, the center will hopefully stick around and who knows? Maybe there will be some optimism featured in the stories with some characters on the road to recovery.

I remember that too though I mostly avoid the Batman forum because of crusaders against King's run take all the fun out of the book I love the best lately. I agree that those negative reactions to I Am Suicide (the ones along the lines you mentioned - calling a child "weak" for considering suicide after his parents were gunned down) were appalling.

Of course King's Batman run is controversial. Most intrepid art is. I keep seeing people worrying that Heroes in Crisis will be "the debacle" that Identity Crisis was. But I'm seeing that from the ones that hate King's Batman and (obviously) hated ID Crisis. I freaking LOVED Identity Crisis. Not because it was dark, but because it was cathartic and moving and thrilling (IMO - obviously).

So if that's what we're worried about... That Heroes in Crisis might be kin to King's Batman (oh no!) or Identity Crisis (no, no!) only makes me more excited about it. To this reader, King's Batman and Meltzer's ID Crisis have been two of the most sensitively told stories about our heroes of all time. Maybe they've been THE most of all time, IMO.

And I've never read any comic series more times than I have Identity Crisis though I re-read King's Batman a lot as well. I haven't been so excited about an upcoming series maybe ever.

[Kaijudo]

I remember that too though I mostly avoid the Batman forum because of crusaders against King's run take all the fun out of the book I love the best lately. I agree that those negative reactions to I Am Suicide (the ones along the lines you mentioned - calling a child "weak" for considering suicide after his parents were gunned down) were appalling.

Of course King's Batman run is controversial. Most intrepid art is. I keep seeing people worrying that Heroes in Crisis will be "the debacle" that Identity Crisis was. But I'm seeing that from the ones that hate King's Batman and (obviously) hated ID Crisis. I freaking LOVED Identity Crisis. Not because it was dark, but because it was cathartic and moving and thrilling (IMO - obviously).

So if that's what we're worried about... That Heroes in Crisis might be kin to King's Batman (oh no!) or Identity Crisis (no, no!) only makes me more excited about it. To this reader, King's Batman and Meltzer's ID Crisis have been two of the most sensitively told stories about our heroes of all time. Maybe they've been THE most of all time, IMO.

And I've never read any comic series more times than I have Identity Crisis though I re-read King's Batman a lot as well. I haven't been so excited about an upcoming series maybe ever.

To be fair, there are many people who enjoy King's Batman run and absolutely hated IDENTITY CRISIS. I'm one of them...I think what King's doing is the best Batman we've seen in forever, certainly better than the thumb-twiddling of the "classic" Snyder run. And I consider IDENTITY CRISIS to be the worst thing that DC has ever done, an absolute garbage fire of a book. Not because of the murder...it's a murder mystery, so you need a victim...but the elements that have now been revealed to have been forced in by DC editorial to make the book even darker. Elements that had no real bearing on the mystery, which could've been told just the same without the added veneer of grimdark to make it "kewl."

All that said, I'm looking forward to HEROES IN CRISIS, because King is killing it on Batman and Mister Miracle and because I have faith he can do a murder mystery without throwing in those extra elements that made IDENTITY CRISIS such a toxic disgrace.

[Godlike13]

Compared to Donna and Garth or Wally in the last decade I'd say he's done pretty well as far as being consistently shown in stories or team books.

Obviously his issues with addiction is a major part of Roy's character, but usually when written right it's about him persevering and moving on from it. Addiction is a lifelong struggle.

I think there's been enough good in his life and enough he's been able to achieve as a character to say he's a success story, especially compared to his mentor.

DC ruined a lot of that, but they've always seemed to have it out for Roy.

That’s a low bar. Point is though, when you don’t get get many stories about you, those 2-3 times is quite relevant. I mean Rise of Arsenal, as long ago as it was, was his last solo push. Titans was his last series. This hardly illustrates him persevering and moving on from his addiction.

And you say he’s a success story, but how exactly is he a success story. Especially compared to his mentor.

[Frontier]

That’s a low bar. Point is though, when you don’t get get many stories about you, those 2-3 times is quite relevant. I mean Rise of Arsenal, as long ago as it was, was his last solo push. Titans was his last series. This hardly illustrates him persevering and moving on from his addiction.

I don't think it's as low a bar. Combined with media pushes I'd say Roy has had it pretty solid over the years, and he doesn't have Wally's issue of writers needing to re-emphasize Barry as the definitive flash.

I would say Rise of Arsenal and the last Titans book are far from the be-all end-all of Roy Harper.

And you say he’s a success story, but how exactly is he a success story. Especially compared to his mentor.

He was shown to be a better dad then Ollie was, and I think he was much more open about his mistakes and fixing them then Ollie.

[BatmanJones]

To be fair, there are many people who enjoy King's Batman run and absolutely hated IDENTITY CRISIS. I'm one of them...I think what King's doing is the best Batman we've seen in forever, certainly better than the thumb-twiddling of the "classic" Snyder run. And I consider IDENTITY CRISIS to be the worst thing that DC has ever done, an absolute garbage fire of a book. Not because of the murder...it's a murder mystery, so you need a victim...but the elements that have now been revealed to have been forced in by DC editorial to make the book even darker. Elements that had no real bearing on the mystery, which could've been told just the same without the added veneer of grimdark to make it "kewl."

All that said, I'm looking forward to HEROES IN CRISIS, because King is killing it on Batman and Mister Miracle and because I have faith he can do a murder mystery without throwing in those extra elements that made IDENTITY CRISIS such a toxic disgrace.

I think that's plenty fair. Every response to any art is. (I mean, as long as you're actually experiencing the art before criticizing it and not criticizing based on recaps or news stories.) I'm just glad you're enjoying King's Batman as much as I am. It's my favorite run on Batman too and Batman has been my top hero forever and I've read every run. I love a lot of them but I love King's best. I'm sorry you didn't dig Identity Crisis but I'm glad you're digging Batman.

And I'm extra glad to read a post from someone else that's actually looking forward to Heroes in Crisis. I think it will be great because it's by Tom King and Clay Mann just as I loved ID Crisis for Meltzer and Rags. This whole promo "One of these characters is going to DIE!!!!!" isn't King's style. It's got Didio's fingerprints all over it. He loves to promote with deaths and controversy.

[Godlike13]

I don't think it's as low a bar. Combined with media pushes I'd say Roy has had it pretty solid over the years, and he doesn't have Wally's issue of writers needing to re-emphasize Barry as the definitive flash.

I would say Rise of Arsenal and the last Titans book are far from the be-all end-all of Roy Harper.

That is a low bar. Being used more then Donna, Garth, or Wally right now isn’t saying much. And while Wally might have the Barry problem right now, and might be at a low, Roy’s has still never had the highs Wally has had. Not even close. Roy doesn’t need Wally’s issue, he has plenty of his own. Hell even now compared to Wally it’s not like the Titans was ever proclaiming the return of Roy Harper as it’s marketing ploy or anything. So I’m sorry, but just being around isn’t that impressive. And last time I checked Roy was off in limbo. So I don’t see how well he actually is fairing himself right now.

And while Rise of Arsenal and the last Titans book might not be the be all, end all there isn’t exactly much else either.

He was shown to be a better dad then Ollie was, and I think he was much more open about his mistakes and fixing them then Ollie.

Doesn’t mean he’s done or accomplished more then Ollie. As a dad that all went up in flames, and turned out rather tragic too, and just because he’s open about his mistakes doesn’t mean he actually gets around to fixing them or truly redeems himself from them. Roy is still often looked at and is readily portrayed as the resident screw up.

[Frontier]

That is a low bar. Being used more then Donna, Garth, or Wally right now isn’t saying much. And while Wally might have the Barry problem right now, and might be at a low, Roy’s has still never had the highs Wally has had. Not even close. Roy doesn’t need Wally’s issue, he has plenty of his own. Hell even now compared to Wally it’s not like the Titans was ever proclaiming the return of Roy Harper as it’s marketing ploy or anything. So I’m sorry, but just being around isn’t that impressive. And last time I checked Roy was off in limbo. So I don’t see how well he actually is fairing himself right now.

Why would they though? It's not like he was dead or vanished out-of-continuity like Wally did.

Besides, that will probably be the title of the inevitable storyline that brings him back to life .

He's made appearances in Green Arrow and Red Hood and the Outlaws, although some of that might be setting up his appearance in Heroes in Crisis.

And while Rise of Arsenal and the last Titans book might not be the be all, end all there isn’t exactly much else either.

There are other Titans runs, Outsiders, Green Arrow runs with Roy in them as well.

Doesn’t mean he’s done or accomplished more then Ollie. As a dad that all went up in flames, and turned out rather tragic too, and just because he’s open about his mistakes doesn’t mean he actually gets around to fixing them or truly redeems himself from them. Roy is still often looked at and is readily portrayed as the resident screw up.

Not abandoning or pretending your kid didn't exist in the first place is a pretty big accomplishment compared to what Ollie did to Connor.

I think he's looked at more for having issues and working on them then as someone who's a screw-up. And he has fixed and redeem his issues in the past, even if DC tries to dredge them up again every now and then for drama, but that happens with every character.