“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[Dred]

Azzarello wrote a solid Xena comic, which I guess is what a lot of people imagine Wonder Woman as. I don't. It was also written by a man who demonstrably thinks little of superheroes and women, and that bias leaks into every plot and character action. Right down to glorifying Ares because of course Azz would.

As someone who hates both superheroes and optimistic or happy characters AND is a giant rape and murder glorifying edge lord, I really, really don't think Azz and suicide squad are a good place for Wally. And I'm absolutely sure DC knows that.

[jyamen]

I'm sure its been touched on, but I also cringed at the scene where Wally decides to creep on everyone's files. I understand he's having a breakdown with his kids still missing and huge chunks of his life not matching up, but there was NOTHING believable about that scene and no understandable motivation for it. I'm REALLY hoping that this is somehow Thawnes influence or the Psycho Pirate at play, or SOMETHING. I just cant wrap my head around DC bringing Wally back to such huge fanfare and then taking a giant dump on his legacy the moment they do, I have to believe they're smarter than that. Right?

[Lee Stone]

Azzarello wrote a solid Xena comic, which I guess is what a lot of people imagine Wonder Woman as. I don't. It was also written by a man who demonstrably thinks little of superheroes and women, and that bias leaks into every plot and character action. Right down to glorifying Ares because of course Azz would.

As someone who hates both superheroes and optimistic or happy characters AND is a giant rape and murder glorifying edge lord, I really, really don't think Azz and suicide squad are a good place for Wally. And I'm absolutely sure DC knows that.

I really liked Dizzy in 100 Bullets, who came off as a very strong character.

[DevilBat66]

Captain Computron was the shiznit.

[Buried Alien]

Or maybe they're bringing back . . .



Colonel Computron!

I would never stop laughing if Computron turns out to be the real villain in all of this.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ducklord]

So, with the caveat that this ain't officially over yet, which is the worst, Heroes in Crisis, Identity Crisis, or Cry for Justice?

Identity Crisis
Pro
- Beautiful, consistent art
- Nice character beats
- Engaging mystery (until the end)
- Relatively low body count, mostly powerful deaths
Con
- "I brought a flamethrower just in case"
- Batman is a bad detective, all things considered
- Retro-rape
- Retro-mind rape
- Firestorm killed as an afterthought
- Jean's motivation makes no damn sense
- Treatment of women is subpar

Heroes in Crisis
Pro
- Mostly pretty, if inconsistent, art
- Some decent character beats before the deaths
- Aimed high
Con
- Wildly ooc Wally
- Batman is, once again, a horrible detective
- Poorly placed cheesecake
- High body count as substitute for drama (could still be undone)
- DC's trinity grabbing onto the Idiot Ball with gusto

Cry for Justice
Pro
- Some pretty art.
Con
- "Justice!"
- Writing so bad it makes you wonder if there are two James Robinsons
- High body count with no character beats to make you care.
- Fridging Lian to turn Roy into a cat-swinging junkie.
- Horribly inconsitent art
- Delays, delays, delays
- Heroes torturing people for no danged reason.
- Lots of other stuff I've blotted from my memory.

Right now, Cry for Justice, I think, is still the worst. Heroes in Crisis is the second worst, and it could climb to only third worst if the deaths are undone.

[Rakzo]

That's so little to go on, it hardly matters.
And I really don't see how Diana getting a peck on the cheek that she later confirms in ONE conversation with Steve was from her girlfriend is heavy handed at all. Especially when comparing it a run that has the Amazons spit on the ground at the mere mention of penises.

I was referring more about the rest of Rucka's themes in terms of heavyhandedness.

Also, those kind of phrases are called "subtle writing" which I highly appreciate.

Bringing back the Amazons is what people WANTED, because they and what they represented mattered a lot to people. and he made them go away in a way that was ridiculously easy to bring back (just restore access to Themyscira). And while they are away, they aren't killing sailors or chucking infant males off cliffs.

But Rucka made them go away while his whole purpose was to bring them back in the first place. That defeats the whole theme of his own story.

Diana and Zola being the heart of the run is all well and good, but he could have done that story while leaving the Amazons alone. His changes to the Amazons are just mean spirited and pointless, done for shock value and nothing else.

Turn around is fair play. Azzarello doing what he did to the Amazons and dismissing previous takes as being boring because they were "perfect" is mean spirited. He was setting himself up for a rebuttal, and he got one.

Azarello's version was a REBOOT, it was acceptable, hell, it was MANDATED for him to change stuff.

And that rebuttal was way more heavyhanded and petty than anything Azzarello did.

His gods were interesting...except Athena and Aphrodite. And those are kinda the wrong ones to be messing up in this title. And while Athena was a behind the scenes player in Rebirth, in Rucka's first run she was more interesting that Azzarello's. As was Ares.

Nah, Azarello's Ares is simply the best. Best dynamic with Diana too.

And it doesn't matter because Zola means f**k all to this property outside of Azzarello's run, whereas Hippolyta and her people DO. Going all the way back to the beginning. At most, we should have more than one female narrative, not have to settle for one at the expense of another.

Hera and Strife also played a huge role in the story by the way.

And the fact that Zola is absent is all Rucka's fault who decided to focus on less interesting characters who SHOULD have been more interesting.

And as we've seen, YMMV on this. I wouldn't say Azzarelllo made a single improvement outside of the Gods, and even they weren't perfect. The stuff he got right about Diana was already there, and the Amazon were garbage.

So, Azzarello got Diana right then.

[SiegePerilous02]

Azzarello wrote a solid Xena comic, which I guess is what a lot of people imagine Wonder Woman as. I don't. It was also written by a man who demonstrably thinks little of superheroes and women, and that bias leaks into every plot and character action. Right down to glorifying Ares because of course Azz would.

As someone who hates both superheroes and optimistic or happy characters AND is a giant rape and murder glorifying edge lord, I really, really don't think Azz and suicide squad are a good place for Wally. And I'm absolutely sure DC knows that.

I'd say Xena at its best was more nuanced and feminist than anything Azzarello can manage.

Agreed on the Wally stuff. I'd say it'd be an interesting premise if anyone else would be writing it.

I was referring more about the rest of Rucka's themes in terms of heavyhandedness.

Also, those kind of phrases are called "subtle writing" which I highly appreciate.

There was subtle writing in the Azzarello run beyond that one phrase?
I'd say the Amazons being straw misandrists was anything but subtle.

But Rucka made them go away while his whole purpose was to bring them back in the first place. That defeats the whole theme of his own story.

He restored their true selves to the canon and the fact that their positive influence shaped the greatest female hero the world has ever known. He didn't defeat the theme, he did what he set out to accomplish and restored what the majority of the fans wanted.

You are aware that the Amazons didn't cease to exist at the end of his run right? They can easily be brought back into the narrative (as they are slated to do in July) and be themselves, whereas building off Azzarello's Amazons would be a fool's errand even without Meredith Finch as a follow up. Azzarello's theme is that communities of women are bad, or at least too good to be true, and this is not the comic for that crap.

Azarello's version was a REBOOT, it was acceptable, hell, it was MANDATED for him to change stuff.

And that rebuttal was way more heavyhanded and petty than anything Azzarello did.

And Rebirth was an editorially mandated reboot/re-shuffling, so everything Rucka did was acceptable as well. You may not like it, but it's pretty cut and dry.
And all the stuff Azzarello did wrong was so stupidly over the top that no rebuttal would be too heavy handed. Rucka's take on the illusionary New 52 Amazons were actually pretty subdued compared to how Azzarello wrote them.

Nah, Azarello's Ares is simply the best. Best dynamic with Diana too.

It's not hard to have a better Ares than the classic one. But it's awfully convenient that her vital relationships with Athena, Aphrodite and the Amazons were downplayed or ignored to get this Ares dynamic to work. Because otherwise it's pointless.

Hera and Strife also played a huge role in the story by the way.

And the fact that Zola is absent is all Rucka's fault who decided to focus on less interesting characters who SHOULD have been more interesting.

You can't keep pointing out other women in the plot as if that excuses what he did to the Amazons, because their positive role in her backstory is the only such narrative we had and he wiped his ass with it for no reason. We shouldn't have to choose between female driven narratives. If the Amazons have no role in the plot, they can be written out but otherwise unmolested, which they weren't. He cast them aside and screwed them up for shock value.
Hera's arc had moments of greatness, but he undermined his own writing by letting her abusive husband off the hook. And Strife is fantastic, but she's a morally dubious femme fatale/bitch. Not a solid replacement for the Amazons.

It's also not Rucka's fault that Zola shat the bed and kind of vanished before he even got there. DC lost interest in her, and they're aren't many clamoring for her return.

So, Azzarello got Diana right then.

Other writers are able to get her right without taking a wrecking ball to the world around her and ruining (among others) her most important supporting character: her mother. So he doesn't get credit for that.

I shudder to think what he will do to Linda.

[Rakzo]

There was subtle writing in the Azzarello run beyond that one phrase?
I'd say the Amazons being straw misandrists was anything but subtle.

Better than the constant buzzwords that appeared during Rucka's run.

He restored their true selves to the canon and the fact that their positive influence shaped the greatest female hero the world has ever known. He didn't defeat the theme, he did what he set out to accomplish and restored what the majority of the fans wanted.

You are aware that the Amazons didn't cease to exist at the end of his run right? They can easily be brought back into the narrative (as they are slated to do in July) and be themselves, whereas building off Azzarello's Amazons would be a fool's errand even without Meredith Finch as a follow up. Azzarello's theme is that communities of women are bad, or at least too good to be true, and this is not the comic for that crap.

No. The point of the story was to bring them back to Diana's life. Once that they're gone it DOES defeat the theme of the story.

And Rebirth was an editorially mandated reboot/re-shuffling, so everything Rucka did was acceptable as well. You may not like it, but it's pretty cut and dry.
And all the stuff Azzarello did wrong was so stupidly over the top that no rebuttal would be too heavy handed. Rucka's take on the illusionary New 52 Amazons were actually pretty subdued compared to how Azzarello wrote them.

Nah. Azzarello got a blank slate so he didn't need to contradict anything. Rucka did have to contradict everything that happened in Azzarello's run because of pure pettiness.

And yes, it was pretty heavyhanded in its execution.

It's not hard to have a better Ares than the classic one. But it's awfully convenient that her vital relationships with Athena, Aphrodite and the Amazons were downplayed or ignored to get this Ares dynamic to work. Because otherwise it's pointless.

Ares got other dynamics with many other Gods as well.

You can't keep pointing out other women in the plot as if that excuses what he did to the Amazons, because their positive role in her backstory is the only such narrative we had and he wiped his ass with it for no reason. We shouldn't have to choose between female driven narratives. If the Amazons have no role in the plot, they can be written out but otherwise unmolested, which they weren't. He cast them aside and screwed them up for shock value.
Hera's arc had moments of greatness, but he undermined his own writing by letting her abusive husband off the hook. And Strife is fantastic, but she's a morally dubious femme fatale/bitch. Not a solid replacement for the Amazons.

You can't also keep pointing out what Azzarello did to the Amazons as proof that his run didn't have a female narrative when most of his protagonists were complex female characters.

It's also not Rucka's fault that Zola shat the bed and kind of vanished before he even got there. DC lost interest in her, and they're aren't many clamoring for her return.

It is Rucka's fault that he didn't make the supporting cast as interesting as Zola.

Other writers are able to get her right without taking a wrecking ball to the world around her and ruining (among others) her most important supporting character: her mother. So he doesn't get credit for that.

I shudder to think what he will do to Linda.

Again, Azzarello worked on a brand new version.

And Azzarello has written strong female characters as well so I wouldn't fear for Linda.

[Dred]

He's not doing anything to Linda because Linda no longer exists except as a memory to justify destroying Wally. Mark off one more female minority to the cosmic reboot fridge.

[Franny6422]

Oh' dear, it does look like if this thread is just a sample, that HiC has really garnered a lot of negativity. Don't believe in the adage, even bad publicity is better than no publicity, especially in this case. Yes people are talking, but not in a positive manner. Personally I believe it's a bad move what they did with Wally. Personally I like King' s work in the main, but this has been too pretentious for me, or maybe the calibre of writing is a little highbrow for me? Maybe it'll read better in a trade, but that still won't negate the awful character assassination of Wally. If they had any sense they should act on this negative feedback. Even if the last issue has been completed and locked off, if there Isn't any redemption or twist that exonerated Wally, scrap it' pen and ink new one. Otherwise you should know it's not gonna end well. People now feel cheated.

[paulojrmam]

I like the idea of Azzarelo on the Suicide Squad. Hope he's allowed to kill characters, because that's the one thing I didn't like in Rob Williams run. But I don't think Flash should be in the Suicide Squad. Not only because he should be a hero and not be on an antiheroes/villains team, but also because I don't think the Squad should have someone as blatantly powerful as him. I also don't think a team book where characters share spotlight and page-space is the right place to fix the Wally situation. He should at least get a mini before or alongside being on the SS.

And as someone that really liked Identity Crisis, to me the comparison is impossible. HiC does seem to be heavily influenced by IC, to the point of almost being a remake of it, but it's much worse in every respect. I haven't read Cry for Justice.

[donnafan]

I like the idea of Azzarelo on the Suicide Squad. Hope he's allowed to kill characters, because that's the one thing I didn't like in Rob Williams run. But I don't think Flash should be in the Suicide Squad. Not only because he should be a hero and not be on an antiheroes/villains team, but also because I don't think the Squad should have someone as blatantly powerful as him. I also don't think a team book where characters share spotlight and page-space is the right place to fix the Wally situation. He should at least get a mini before or alongside being on the SS.

Even if Flash does time in SS will he ever be able to come back from this? The losing control and subsequent killings arguably not his fault but, covering it up and framing two people definitely is. I'm all for rooting for the underdog but, unless someone like Max Lord controlled Wally's actions, he's way too shady for me to ever trust again.

[king81992]

Even if Flash does time in SS will he ever be able to come back from this? The losing control and subsequent killings arguably not his fault but, covering it up and framing two people definitely is. I'm all for rooting for the underdog but, unless someone like Max Lord controlled Wally's actions, he's way too shady for me to ever trust again.

DC managed to get Hal to come back from being a villain, so if someone is willing Wally will get redeemed.

[SiegePerilous02]

Better than the constant buzzwords that appeared during Rucka's run.

Such as?

And it's not like this is a subtle genre or character to begin with. And some of the buzzwords were a breath of fresh air after we endured a run where the Amazons legit said "BUT IT HAS A PENIS" at a baby.

No. The point of the story was to bring them back to Diana's life. Once that they're gone it DOES defeat the theme of the story.

No, revealing the crappy Amazons as a lie and restoring the true ones and their role in Diana's origins, and establishing that they were still out there, was the intent. And leaving them on the table for other writers to use (seriously, how easy is it to bring them back? Wilson is doing it now and doesn't have to contradict anything) is all that is required.

Most fans were satisfied with that. At least Hippolyta wasn't ruling over a society of baby killers now.

Nah. Azzarello got a blank slate so he didn't need to contradict anything. Rucka did have to contradict everything that happened in Azzarello's run because of pure pettiness.

And yes, it was pretty heavyhanded in its execution.

Other franchises got blank slates and turned out ok like Shazam and Aquaman. Another writer with a blank slate could have done better than Azzarello if their ideas were better, because doing a Wonder Woman foundation that undermines women is an inherently stupid idea. I don't care that he contradicted nothing, it was still lousy. It was also something Johns sought out Rucka to do, because it was not in the company's interest to keep those Amazons any longer.

And labeling the clay birth (something valued by many) as a lie and "weird" and that Diana was made to feel like a freak because of it was petty and heavy handed in its execution.

Ares got other dynamics with many other Gods as well.

Again, such as? Because aside from snarking at the other Gods, nothing too memorable springs to mind. And Ares's two classical foes, Athena and Aphrodite, barely interacted with him. The latter just got to be naked and pretty and do nothing, whereas she was once the patron goddess of the Amazons.

You can't also keep pointing out what Azzarello did to the Amazons as proof that his run didn't have a female narrative when most of his protagonists were complex female characters.

What complex female characters? Diana and Hera and...who else? Because Hippolyta is a shadow of her former self who exists to get pregnant by a married man and then get "killed," Cassandra is generically evil, Aleka and Dessa are discount versions of Artemis and Philippus, and the goddesses are not as powerful or connected to the Amazons as they once were. Artemis is Apollo's grunt and Aphrodite a shallow trophy. Siracca had potential, but appears so little. Strife is delightful, but she ain't complex.

And his own female narratives is still not a valid excuse to get rid of the vitally important one that existed since the property began, was subversive and rare in superhero comics, and was highly valued by fans.

It is Rucka's fault that he didn't make the supporting cast as interesting as Zola.

Depends on who you ask. Zola was nice and all, but hardly the greatest character find to come out of a superhero property. And ultimately a piss poor substitute for her dynamics with Hippolyta, classic Etta, Donna, Cassie, Artemis, the Amazons, and even the Holliday Girls.

Again, Azzarello worked on a brand new version.

And it failed to resonate with the fanbase (or at least its changes to some very important things failed to) and now it's gone. Such is life. DC doesn't seem inclined to bring it back, especially as the movies took no inspiration from it besides the Zeus parentage (and didn't even execute it the same way)

He's not doing anything to Linda because Linda no longer exists except as a memory to justify destroying Wally. Mark off one more female minority to the cosmic reboot fridge.

I admittedly stopped paying attention to what is going on with her since Wally's story stalled out. Is she dead?

I'm not entirely sure her memory will be safe in Suicide Squad. Expect some dodgy flashback sequences.