“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[king81992]

Such as?

And it's not like this is a subtle genre or character to begin with. And some of the buzzwords were a breath of fresh air after we endured a run where the Amazons legit said "BUT IT HAS A PENIS" at a baby.




No, revealing the crappy Amazons as a lie and restoring the true ones and their role in Diana's origins, and establishing that they were still out there, was the intent. And leaving them on the table for other writers to use (seriously, how easy is it to bring them back? Wilson is doing it now and doesn't have to contradict anything) is all that is required.

Most fans were satisfied with that. At least Hippolyta wasn't ruling over a society of baby killers now.



Other franchises got blank slates and turned out ok like Shazam and Aquaman. Another writer with a blank slate could have done better than Azzarello if their ideas were better, because doing a Wonder Woman foundation that undermines women is an inherently stupid idea. I don't care that he contradicted nothing, it was still lousy. It was also something Johns sought out Rucka to do, because it was not in the company's interest to keep those Amazons any longer.

And labeling the clay birth (something valued by many) as a lie and "weird" and that Diana was made to feel like a freak because of it was petty and heavy handed in its execution.



Again, such as? Because aside from snarking at the other Gods, nothing too memorable springs to mind. And Ares's two classical foes, Athena and Aphrodite, barely interacted with him. The latter just got to be naked and pretty and do nothing, whereas she was once the patron goddess of the Amazons.



What complex female characters? Diana and Hera and...who else? Because Hippolyta is a shadow of her former self who exists to get pregnant by a married man and then get "killed," Cassandra is generically evil, Aleka and Dessa are discount versions of Artemis and Philippus, and the goddesses are not as powerful or connected to the Amazons as they once were. Artemis is Apollo's grunt and Aphrodite a shallow trophy. Siracca had potential, but appears so little. Strife is delightful, but she ain't complex.

And his own female narratives is still not a valid excuse to get rid of the vitally important one that existed since the property began, was subversive and rare in superhero comics, and was highly valued by fans.




Depends on who you ask. Zola was nice and all, but hardly the greatest character find to come out of a superhero property. And ultimately a piss poor substitute for her dynamics with Hippolyta, classic Etta, Donna, Cassie, Artemis, the Amazons, and even the Holliday Girls.




And it failed to resonate with the fanbase (or at least its changes to some very important things failed to) and now it's gone. Such is life. DC doesn't seem inclined to bring it back, especially as the movies took no inspiration from it besides the Zeus parentage (and didn't even execute it the same way)



I admittedly stopped paying attention to what is going on with her since Wally's story stalled out. Is she dead?

I'm not entirely sure her memory will be safe in Suicide Squad. Expect some dodgy flashback sequences.

Linda is still alive, she just wanted nothing to do with Wally.

[byrd156]

So, with the caveat that this ain't officially over yet, which is the worst, Heroes in Crisis, Identity Crisis, or Cry for Justice?

Identity Crisis
Pro
- Beautiful, consistent art
- Nice character beats
- Engaging mystery (until the end)
- Relatively low body count, mostly powerful deaths
Con
- "I brought a flamethrower just in case"
- Batman is a bad detective, all things considered
- Retro-rape
- Retro-mind rape
- Firestorm killed as an afterthought
- Jean's motivation makes no damn sense
- Treatment of women is subpar

Heroes in Crisis
Pro
- Mostly pretty, if inconsistent, art
- Some decent character beats before the deaths
- Aimed high
Con
- Wildly ooc Wally
- Batman is, once again, a horrible detective
- Poorly placed cheesecake
- High body count as substitute for drama (could still be undone)
- DC's trinity grabbing onto the Idiot Ball with gusto

Cry for Justice
Pro
- Some pretty art.
Con
- "Justice!"
- Writing so bad it makes you wonder if there are two James Robinsons
- High body count with no character beats to make you care.
- Fridging Lian to turn Roy into a cat-swinging junkie.
- Horribly inconsitent art
- Delays, delays, delays
- Heroes torturing people for no danged reason.
- Lots of other stuff I've blotted from my memory.

Right now, Cry for Justice, I think, is still the worst. Heroes in Crisis is the second worst, and it could climb to only third worst if the deaths are undone.

They are all equally horrible and aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

[paulojrmam]

Even if Flash does time in SS will he ever be able to come back from this? The losing control and subsequent killings arguably not his fault but, covering it up and framing two people definitely is. I'm all for rooting for the underdog but, unless someone like Max Lord controlled Wally's actions, he's way too shady for me to ever trust again.

They still didn't tell us why Wally was covering what he did and why he framed Harley and Booster.

And, yeah, you said another reason not to have Wally on the Squad. I bet he'll be trapped there by DC. But I also think the opposite can happen and, with him as team leader, his popularity might actually rise and make DC focus more on him. Or perhaps I'm being too naive.

[Dred]

She was written off as wanting nothing to do with Wally offscreen immediately after the first Titans arc. She's also just not the same person, her origin and life were completely changed.

Wally West won't have his popularity rise from suicide squad. He's already more popular than that comic title. It would be the reverse, using Wally's appeal and controversial situation to promote a team book that struggles. You know, boost the thing with a movie

[Kyer]

They are all equally horrible and aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

This.
I had the misfortune to actually purchase IC sight unseen. After that I made sure I didn't pay for anything in advance and this has served me well with the other two pieces of utter garbage.

[Rakzo]

Such as?

"Toxic masculinity", "Privilege", among a few others that Ben Percy would be proud of.

No, revealing the crappy Amazons as a lie and restoring the true ones and their role in Diana's origins, and establishing that they were still out there, was the intent. And leaving them on the table for other writers to use (seriously, how easy is it to bring them back? Wilson is doing it now and doesn't have to contradict anything) is all that is required.

Nah. The intent should have been to bring them back and KEEP THEM THAT WAY! Otherwise it DOES defeat the intent and creates an extremely unsatisfying conclusion.

Most fans were satisfied with that.

HA! That's not what I remember from the discussion about Rucka's final issue.

Other franchises got blank slates and turned out ok like Shazam and Aquaman. Another writer with a blank slate could have done better than Azzarello if their ideas were better, because doing a Wonder Woman foundation that undermines women is an inherently stupid idea. I don't care that he contradicted nothing, it was still lousy. It was also something Johns sought out Rucka to do, because it was not in the company's interest to keep those Amazons any longer.

Azzarello did pretty good for his direction. That's why his run is so acclaimed.

And labeling the clay birth (something valued by many) as a lie and "weird" and that Diana was made to feel like a freak because of it was petty and heavy handed in its execution.

That was one of the most interesting twists in years. The clay origin was simply not relatable at all.

Again, such as? Because aside from snarking at the other Gods, nothing too memorable springs to mind. And Ares's two classical foes, Athena and Aphrodite, barely interacted with him. The latter just got to be naked and pretty and do nothing, whereas she was once the patron goddess of the Amazons.

His relationship with Strife, Hephaestus and of course, Hera were pretty important during the run.

What complex female characters? Diana and Hera and...who else? Because Hippolyta is a shadow of her former self who exists to get pregnant by a married man and then get "killed," Cassandra is generically evil, Aleka and Dessa are discount versions of Artemis and Philippus, and the goddesses are not as powerful or connected to the Amazons as they once were. Artemis is Apollo's grunt and Aphrodite a shallow trophy. Siracca had potential, but appears so little. Strife is delightful, but she ain't complex.

Zola and Strife. Yes, I find Strife complex in how messed-up she is.

And his own female narratives is still not a valid excuse to get rid of the vitally important one that existed since the property began, was subversive and rare in superhero comics, and was highly valued by fans.

Rucka didn't do well with those either as I mentioned.

Depends on who you ask. Zola was nice and all, but hardly the greatest character find to come out of a superhero property. And ultimately a piss poor substitute for her dynamics with Hippolyta, classic Etta, Donna, Cassie, Artemis, the Amazons, and even the Holliday Girls.

It brought the kind of humanity that was lacking in the series in a while.

Rucka's Etta in comparison is hardly as interesting nor relatable.

And it failed to resonate with the fanbase (or at least its changes to some very important things failed to) and now it's gone.

Are you seriously saying this about the most critically acclaimed WW run in history?

[Slim Shady]

Batman is a terrible detective. Fooled by someone jamming chattering teeth down a guy's throat.

That's nothing, you should see how King writes him in Batman. Poor guy can barely put together a complete sentence.

[DragonPiece]

king even has college football players tweeting bad about him https://twitter.com/MylesLGarrett/st...62128018702336

[paulojrmam]

Nah. The intent should have been to bring them back and KEEP THEM THAT WAY! Otherwise it DOES defeat the intent and creates an extremely unsatisfying conclusion.

But they were there for a lot of issues with them in and their coming back was made easy at the end of Rucka's run. If the intent was to bring them back and keep them, it was successful.

[Frontier]

king even has college football players tweeting bad about him https://twitter.com/MylesLGarrett/st...62128018702336

At least he's a good enough fan enough to recommend DC books too .

[Dred]

I always liked the Browns

Also to clarify, Myles Garrett is not a college player. He is a pro player and one of the absolute best at his position. Not that it really increased the value of his opinion, just means it'll have a lot of reach.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

Now that another whole day has gone by and I've had more time to think, I'm starting to doubt that things are going to be reversed so that Wally didn't kill anyone.

This morning, I posited a theory on the other thread about HIC Spoilers that Wally may have been in VR and not really have killed anyone. https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post4322883

It has since been picked up by others, even CBR on its front page, to discuss.

However, I think I was just grasping at straws because we have to face facts that HIC 9 is only a standard-size issue of 20 pages. I don't see how they can undo everything in the next issue and then create a new reason as to why this miniseries matters in so few pages.

Now, the Bleeding Cool rumor of Wally being part of a new Suicide Squad might be true, but then they'll have to devote a few pages to show us how Wally could survive his own suicide. I don't think it can be a fake Wally that was found because the body was scanned by Booster who determined it was 5 days older. If he can do that, he would be able to detect that it was or was not truly Wally.

But, let's say Wally does survive, making him a part of an Azzarello Suicide Squad would not bode well for the character. Wally wouldn't be the same Wally that so many have grown to care for. He'd be a lost soul with a death wish, and I guess that DiDio and Azzarello think that makes the character not redundant.

So, at best, we have Dick Grayson and Wally West as damaged goods, and Roy Harper is just dead.

For you Wally fans, would you rather have Wally survive as a murderer or would you have him really stay dead by the end of this series? If he does survive, do you trust Azzarello to do right by the character?

[Dred]

The simulation idea can't work because of the tie ins like GA, Flash, Titans and kind of Batman.

[MajorHoy]

. . . Now, the Bleeding Cool rumor of Wally being part of a new Suicide Squad might be true, but then they'll have to devote a few pages to show us how Wally could survive his own suicide. I don't think it can be a fake Wally that was found because the body was scanned by Booster who determined it was 5 days older. If he can do that, he would be able to detect that it was or was not truly Wally.

It could be a Wally West from an alternate timeline where Wally kills himself five days in the future, but now isn't the regular timeline because Wally doesn't kill himself then.

[Lee Stone]

They are all equally horrible and aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Hear, Hear!!
I totally agree.