“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[Agent Z]

I'm pretty sure we learned about the murder mystery premise not long after the initial announcement. This certainly isn't recent news.

And we haven't read the issues so we don't know how it plays out to be dismissed as just shock value death. How does a murder play out to avoid being "shocking"? Hell, despite the cliche Women in Refrigerators thing it had going for it, the initial premise of Sue Dibny being murdered and the shocking reveal of it wasn't all that bad on it's own. It was a whole slew of other things that went along with it that were terrible, chiefly the unnecessary use of the rape trope, throwing Jean Loring under the bus, casting a pall over the Satellite era and the mystery not being well thought out. And Sue was a much bigger deal than the named victims so far aside from the big one.



Ivy is far more valuable than the characters killed so far, even the big one. I think it's a given that she will at least survive the story.

The people behind Identity Crisis sure didn't think so. And we're seeing the same thinking being applied to these z-listers being killed off. They're not a big deal, so just slaughter them for shock value.

[Lvenger]

I'm mad that this rumour sounds right up Didio's alley with King as his willing puppet. If he really does go through with killing both of those characters, the comics Internet is going to go crazy on Wednesday.

[SiegePerilous02]

Again, Ivy probably has more fans then those characters, but that doesn't mean the fans of those characters don't value them as much as Ivy fans do Ivy.

And again, I'm not disputing that. Every character may have at least one fan who values them greatly. One fan is not enough from a marketing perspective to justify doing anything with a character that isn't going to sell. The company has no incentive to value them just because some fans do, the fans do not have the numbers to catch the company's notice. Ivy does.

I expect some responses about how these characters could be popular but aren't given the same opportunities, but that's playing "what if" games that have no basis in reality yet, and we could be here all day with that.

But I don't think level of popularity should matter that much in terms of saying one character is more "okay" to kill off then another.

I think it does make it "okay." Popularity means more money, so the ones who are more popular are the ones it's not okay to kill off or remove permanently, or not have them appear in other continuities. It may not be the PC thing to say or whatever, but not all characters are equally valuable. It's a very Survival of the Fittest thing.

It also depends on how they are killing them and if it benefits the story. Should we prevent all characters from being killed and make the books as bland and inoffensive as possible just to avoid annoying a handful of fanboys/girls each time? Sounds miserable to me, I'd rather let the art go through with its direction and succeed or fail based on its own merits (as this one may end up doing) than not do it at all.

(Although, honestly, I'm not sure if the Batman franchise would be that effected by Ivy's death to be honest considering how she's been used so sporadically and inconsistently. The Harley solo would probably ignore it anyways).

The Batman franchise has killed her off before and didn't keep her down for long. She has a long history of notable, if not always successful (Uma), other media appearances. Compared to almost everyone else already confirmed dead, if she wasn't brought back right away it would be pretty much a given down the line. And the Harley solo comment pretty much proves the point that she'd get usage outside of the main continuity, which a lot of these guys would likely not get, because they do not have the appearances and popularity under their belt to warrant it like she does.

The people behind Identity Crisis sure didn't think so. And we're seeing the same thinking being applied to these z-listers being killed off. They're not a big deal, so just slaughter them for shock value.

That's kind of feeding into my point though. If Sue was undervalued, what makes you think most of the rest of these guys will/or even should get better treatment? They're not a big deal, even compared to her. Killing them may not necessarily be done for shock value. We don't know how the deaths play out. We don't know if we're going to see the gore strewn corpses shoved in our faces or if it will be done off screen or how the story will react to it.

Even killing Sue off as a victim in a murder mystery isn't a completely terrible idea on paper that shouldn't see the light of day. Much like this story, it needed to finish and be judged based on its own merits. In that case, it was found wanting. Maybe this one will too, maybe it won't.

[Confuzzled]

I expect some responses about how these characters could be popular but aren't given the same opportunities, but that's playing "what if" games that have no basis in reality yet, and we could be here all day with that.

And TBF I think a character like Roy has been given as much opportunity as Ivy, if not more, especially in the comics. Heck, I actually believe DC has still been underutilizing Ivy as they mostly see her value in propping up Harley as opposed to her potential in her own right.

The one time Ivy was finally given a solo mini with a relatively unknown writer, she managed a pretty decent average per issue going by recent sales standards (outselling more than Len Wein's last Swamp Thing and Raven minis for instance and then performing strongly in TPB sales). But Dan Didio apparently told an Ivy fan on Twitter that Ivy's success as her own character "dilutes sales" (which... I can only interpret as DC being under the assumption that Ivy's popularity as her own character dilutes Harley's popularity, and in turn, Harley's sales).

[Agent Z]

And again, I'm not disputing that. Every character may have at least one fan who values them greatly. One fan is not enough from a marketing perspective to justify doing anything with a character that isn't going to sell. The company has no incentive to value them just because some fans do, the fans do not have the numbers to catch the company's notice. Ivy does.

I expect some responses about how these characters could be popular but aren't given the same opportunities, but that's playing "what if" games that have no basis in reality yet, and we could be here all day with that.

I mean, it isn’t like this view is wrong as has been shown time and time again.

I think it does make it "okay." Popularity means more money, so the ones who are more popular are the ones it's not okay to kill off or remove permanently, or not have them appear in other continuities. It may not be the PC thing to say or whatever, but not all characters are equally valuable. It's a very Survival of the Fittest thing.

Elimination based on popularity might work on reality shows like Big Brother, but not in stories. It’s lazy, it’s cowardly and it’s cheap. It’s the writers and editors playing favorites where they’re supposed to be professionals. And often the people saying that this practice is fair are the ones who never have to worry about their favorites being treated as such.

It also depends on how they are killing them and if it benefits the story. Should we prevent all characters from being killed and make the books as bland and inoffensive as possible just to avoid annoying a handful of fanboys/girls each time?

No.

That's kind of feeding into my point though. If Sue was undervalued, what makes you think most of the rest of these guys will/or even should get better treatment?

I’m confused by this response. Are you under the impression I think Sue shouldn’t have been treated better? Because I assure you that is not the case.

They're not a big deal, even compared to her. Killing them may not necessarily be done for shock value. We don't know how the deaths play out. We don't know if we're going to see the gore strewn corpses shoved in our faces or if it will be done off screen or how the story will react to it.

Even killing Sue off as a victim in a murder mystery isn't a completely terrible idea on paper that shouldn't see the light of day. Much like this story, it needed to finish and be judged based on its own merits. In that case, it was found wanting. Maybe this one will too, maybe it won't.

Considering Didio himself has described this story as Identity Crisis 2.0, it’s not hard to see why people are so cynical about this.

And TBF I think a character like Roy has been given as much opportunity as Ivy, if not more, especially in the comics. Heck, I actually believe DC has still been underutilizing Ivy as they mostly see her value in propping up Harley as opposed to her potential in her own right.

The one time Ivy was finally given a solo mini with a relatively unknown writer, she managed a pretty decent average per issue going by recent sales standards (outselling more than Len Wein's last Swamp Thing and Raven minis for instance and then performing strongly in TPB sales). But Dan Didio apparently told an Ivy fan on Twitter that Ivy's success as her own character "dilutes sales" (which... I can only interpret as DC being under the assumption that Ivy's popularity as her own character dilutes Harley's popularity, and in turn, Harley's sales).

Really? How so? They seem to be on the same level of opportunities to me, with Ivy edging out. Being Harley's friend with benefits is better than 90% of what DC's done with Roy or any of the original Titans that aren't called Dick Grayson or Wally West.

[Confuzzled]

Really? How so? They seem to be on the same level of opportunities to me, with Ivy edging out.

For all of Ivy's other media appearances, none really explored her to the extent like how Young Justice did for Roy (both Arsenal and Red Arrow) and I assume Arrow's version of Roy is at least more fleshed out than Gotham's "Ivy of the week" circus. Roy has also almost consistently been a regular in an ongoing for the past 7 years or so while it has been a lot more inconsistent and sporadic with Ivy.

Being Harley's friend with benefits is better than 90% of what DC's done with Roy or any of the original Titans that aren't called Dick Grayson or Wally West.

I mean, I would gladly exchange Ivy's status quo for being a series regular in a book if you so prefer Roy being Harley's "friend with benefits".

[SiegePerilous02]

I mean, it isn’t like this view is wrong as has been shown time and time again.

It's not wrong, but it's also not realistic to expect it for every character in DC's catalogue. As fans we are just armchair quarterbacks who tell DC that they should invest money and push characters we want, which is easy for us to say because we are not the ones doing it. That also assumes there is a creative direction in mind or that just because some fans want a character to be pushed, there are creators who are actually interested in using them around at the time. DC has notably blocked creators from using certain characters, such as in the case of Cass Cain, but it's not realistic to think that must be the case for every obscure character.

Elimination based on popularity might work on reality shows like Big Brother, but not in stories.

When this is a business that relies on stories selling to justify publication, it's fair game. DC is not a non-profit organization. Popular things sell, not so popular things don't. It doesn't necessarily lead to elimination of characters, but it's easy to see why many don't get much use and may be seen as expendable.

It’s lazy, it’s cowardly and it’s cheap.

I can give you lazy and cheap, but I don't see how it's cowardly. Calling a writer a coward for killing off a character that is very unlikely to be used again seems a bit much, especially when nobody has actually read the story.

It’s the writers and editors playing favorites where they’re supposed to be professionals.

Really? That no doubt happens in some instances, but you can't reliably claim that this is the case in every instance. It's a pretty big assumption to make, and again comes from a fan on the internet who has different desires from the company's output and is voicing it without actually having to do anything to make it happen or sell to make a profit to keep the business afloat.

I’m confused by this response. Are you under the impression I think Sue shouldn’t have been treated better? Because I assure you that is not the case.

Then I am in turn confused by your initial response, the one I was responding to, because I said Sue was more valuable that the majority of the characters on the chopping block now. I never said that she was treated fairly by Identity Crisis, at least in the way the story was ultimately executed.

Considering Didio himself has described this story as Identity Crisis 2.0, it’s not hard to see why people are so cynical about this.

True, but King isn't Meltzer and the only similarity the stories might have are that they are dark and controversial. Cynicism may be justified, but seeing as how the story isn't out yet, only up to a point.

[failo.legendkiller]

Premises and rumors about this story are unlucky.
Didio who wants a new Identity Crisis alike massacre and finally can rid off of some former Titan, darkness and death all over...
But I still have faith in King, I have faith that some way everything will be reversed and repaired. I want to and i hope to.
We'll have to wait till the end to judge this story, it can be great or a total filth.
Anyway, promoting an event teasing two or more powerful shock deaths is really poor.

[MajorHoy]

By the way, much as I don't like King, does anybody know how many characters Geoff Johns casually killed off in Infinite Crisis?

[byrd156]

By the way, much as I don't like King, does anybody know how many characters Geoff Johns casually killed off in Infinite Crisis?

I love how lazy that background is and they just colored it all red.

[Sacred Knight]

I posted this thought in the Superman thread (a thread is there for his role in HiC and it kinda went thread drift, lol), but on the consideration that these particular two deaths are true, how would you guys feel if
spoilers:

By the end of the story both Wally and Roy are saved via time travel. And the time travelers are Iris and Jai West. They save their dad and Roy, and then reveal that prior to this, they had gone back in time and saved someone else; and they reveal they have Lian Harper with them.

end of spoilers
Would this earn back your good will? Would it make the journey and the initial anger worth it? Just curious what those most invested in this might think.

[byrd156]

I posted this thought in the Superman thread (a thread is there for his role in HiC and it kinda went thread drift, lol), but on the consideration that these particular two deaths are true, how would you guys feel if
spoilers:

By the end of the story both Wally and Roy are saved via time travel. And the time travelers are Iris and Jai West. They save their dad and Roy, and then reveal that prior to this, they had gone back in time and saved someone else; and they reveal they have Lian Harper with them.

end of spoilers
Would this earn back your good will? Would it make the journey and the initial anger worth it? Just curious what those most invested in this might think.

There is no way in hell that would ever happen ever. I don't think anyone at DC could even come up with that idea or even think of using those characters again.

Even thinking of it in a what if? scenario just doesn't work because there has to be some level of possibility for a what if.

[Sacred Knight]

I dunno, I'm not a regular reader of The Flash, but I was under the impression those characters had come up a lot in the run during Rebirth. Don't get me wrong I don't think its likely. But I don't think its so far out of the realm of imagination that its stupid to even think of it.

[phantom1592]

I posted this thought in the Superman thread (a thread is there for his role in HiC and it kinda went thread drift, lol), but on the consideration that these particular two deaths are true, how would you guys feel if
spoilers:

By the end of the story both Wally and Roy are saved via time travel. And the time travelers are Iris and Jai West. They save their dad and Roy, and then reveal that prior to this, they had gone back in time and saved someone else; and they reveal they have Lian Harper with them.

end of spoilers
Would this earn back your good will? Would it make the journey and the initial anger worth it? Just curious what those most invested in this might think.

Sounds good to me.

I'm always more interested in where you end the characters. Did you screw them over and break them and walk away... or did you leave them in a good place to move forward with.

Any wild weird insane story... that ends with the status quo restored is something I can live with. (even if I do hate Wally's kids...)

[byrd156]

I dunno, I'm not a regular reader of The Flash, but I was under the impression those characters had come up a lot in the run during Rebirth. Don't get me wrong I don't think its likely. But I don't think its so far out of the realm of imagination that its stupid to even think of it.

I think it, no offense but it's just not going to happen. This is like Batman killing the Joker or DC not killing a Titan(s) character in an event comic.