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  1. #2251
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Rebirth might be ambiguous but Titans Rebirth makes it clear Wally existed in the New 52. When the Titans regained their memories they knew something was missing, Wally, but since he was outside time they could not remember him. Being outside time let him see the universe as it was before Flashpoint. But in Titans he was clearly remembering New 52 stuff and it was the same new 52 memories that were returned to his friends. Wally is a bit confused, understandably, about his being banished and memories being erased. Mostly because he became so attached to the preFP memories that he wanted them to be real. Abra Kadabra erases any doubt about this and confirms Wally was banished by him in the New 52, and then he was forgotten as well.

    While I am sure us disagreeing on the make you think I have proven your point, my counter is actually that it does not matter. There are plenty of stories that people get the details of wrong, plenty of stories that would take more words to properly give a summary of.

    None of that matters, because the reader does not need to know all of that. All of this comes from one story in a single issue. All that a reader needs to know is that he remembers pre Flashpoint. That is all that matters. If someone asks how, he was trapped in the speedforce outside of time and saw stuff. It only becomes convoluted when details that are unnecessary start getting added to the story in order to make it convoluted.
    This has been my take on it too, at least with Wally. The Wally now isn't the pre-Flashpoint Wally but the New 52 Wally that existed with the other New 52 characters but got erased by Abra Kadabara. Then he gained memories of the pre-Flashpoint Wally through some MacGuffin or excuse and that is where we are now with him mostly. The Titans run made that very clear and went out of their want to explain the difference.

  2. #2252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Answer all the usual questions: Why is he called The Flash? Where was he before Rebirth? Why are there two Wally Wests? etc etc. Anyone who looks in his general direction with a slightly inquisitive eye will have a million annoying to explain questions. The dude is such a cavalcade of lunatic retcons and shenanigans it almost makes you think the company has it out for him.
    1) He has the same powers as Barry, took the name Kid Flash and Barry said he has earned dropping Kid.
    2) In story, he was with the Titans until he was banished by Abra Kadabra and was trapped outside of time.
    3) His cousin also got speed powers.

    Sure some of these questions may prompt someone to dig deeper, and to be honest most of the answers which are troublesome are not in story, they are due to publishing decisions. Mostly old fans having issues with the way he was treated with the New 52 reboot.

    Sure there are some convoluted stories in DC, but Wally's backstory does not depend on Rebirth. Even his current situation is pretty tame as far as comic books go: he has the memories of an alternate timeline where he had kids. Again, the focus on Rebirth itself is more from fans of pre-FP desiring the return of pre-FP elements, new readers do not pick up on that.

    Right now, as far as the New 52, I would put Wally's backstory as a lot easier to wrap my head around than Superman, whichever Superboy is coming back, or even what actually is Wonder Woman's origins. Being called the Flash and having a cousin named Wally is no more messy than all the Green Lanterns or Robins. And every character who gets reintroduced back into the New 52 has the question of where were they before.

    So while the multiversal timeline speedforce backdrop of Rebirth might be convoluted, Wally himself is not.

  3. #2253
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    1) He has the same powers as Barry, took the name Kid Flash and Barry said he has earned dropping Kid.
    2) In story, he was with the Titans until he was banished by Abra Kadabra and was trapped outside of time.
    3) His cousin also got speed powers.

    Sure some of these questions may prompt someone to dig deeper, and to be honest most of the answers which are troublesome are not in story, they are due to publishing decisions. Mostly old fans having issues with the way he was treated with the New 52 reboot.

    Sure there are some convoluted stories in DC, but Wally's backstory does not depend on Rebirth. Even his current situation is pretty tame as far as comic books go: he has the memories of an alternate timeline where he had kids. Again, the focus on Rebirth itself is more from fans of pre-FP desiring the return of pre-FP elements, new readers do not pick up on that.

    Right now, as far as the New 52, I would put Wally's backstory as a lot easier to wrap my head around than Superman, whichever Superboy is coming back, or even what actually is Wonder Woman's origins. Being called the Flash and having a cousin named Wally is no more messy than all the Green Lanterns or Robins. And every character who gets reintroduced back into the New 52 has the question of where were they before.

    So while the multiversal timeline speedforce backdrop of Rebirth might be convoluted, Wally himself is not.
    Well if you just want to lie about it okay.

    Wally is The Flash because he has memories of his past life/timeline where he was the Flash after Barry died. That alone is one of the most convoluted aspects of any character. He's not The Flash because Barry said so. That's taking Wally's agency and the actual reason out of it.

    That doesn't explain why there's two Wally Wests. There's two Wally Wests because DC created a new Wally West that no one liked in the new universe, then later retconned it so that the previous universe Wally West always existed and the other one is his cousin who didn't exist in the old universe that Wally remembers.

    Superman's backstory isn't half as complicated as Wally because they tossed out the multiple timelines, multiple universes stuff and just made Superman's post crisis life canon with some extra time for Jon. Wally would be much, much simpler if he was just canon to the previous universe. That we have to explain that he's actually from this timeline, but has conflicting memories with the previous timeline, requires a lot more explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How is Wally's return and existence any different from existence of Bart allen, Conner, JSA and Legion of super heroes. They all did not exist in New52 or post reborn timeline. They are from the old Post crisis timeline.Martian manhunter suddenly was part of the league history. And most of all league had a history. How is any of this less convoluted than Wally's existence is beyond me.

    First of all New52 is not a universe but a timeline. The constant emphasis on hypertime makes this clear. This timeline came into being with manhattan and flashpoint(cough! DC management).
    In New52 timeline, wally was banished/erased along with others by manhattan via various methods like abra kadabra, Alan Scott not being able to save himself, ma and pa kent dieing.. Etc.this is the reason new52 timeline exists and makes it different from the original timeline. When Wally escapes and returns he had memories of the old timeline due to being inside speed force and began jolting people with it to make them also have it. Everything went out of wack. An unaltered timeline superman(who had ma and pa) came Into the new altered new52 timeline because of brainiac and merged/changed the new52 timeline. This caused the time lines to start fix itself by merging the two and being in a constant state of flux, until everything is fixed.
    Bart Allen is just a survivor from the previous universe, which is easier to explain than "He thinks he's a survivor from the previous universe, but actually is from this universe, and the reason he has memories of the previous universe is..." etc etc. You have to jump through twenty hoops to actually let people know the deal with Wally and his memories and his kids who don't exist and why certain people can remember him but others can't.

  4. #2254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Well if you just want to lie about it okay.

    Wally is The Flash because he has memories of his past life/timeline where he was the Flash after Barry died. That alone is one of the most convoluted aspects of any character. He's not The Flash because Barry said so. That's taking Wally's agency and the actual reason out of it.

    That doesn't explain why there's two Wally Wests. There's two Wally Wests because DC created a new Wally West that no one liked in the new universe, then later retconned it so that the previous universe Wally West always existed and the other one is his cousin who didn't exist in the old universe that Wally remembers.

    Superman's backstory isn't half as complicated as Wally because they tossed out the multiple timelines, multiple universes stuff and just made Superman's post crisis life canon with some extra time for Jon. Wally would be much, much simpler if he was just canon to the previous universe. That we have to explain that he's actually from this timeline, but has conflicting memories with the previous timeline, requires a lot more explanation.
    If you think Superman Reborn and merging multiple timelines of people is less convoluted than Wally's return in Rebirth we are talking different languages, or I'm just a liar

  5. #2255
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Well if you just want to lie about it okay.

    Wally is The Flash because he has memories of his past life/timeline where he was the Flash after Barry died. That alone is one of the most convoluted aspects of any character. He's not The Flash because Barry said so. That's taking Wally's agency and the actual reason out of it.

    That doesn't explain why there's two Wally Wests. There's two Wally Wests because DC created a new Wally West that no one liked in the new universe, then later retconned it so that the previous universe Wally West always existed and the other one is his cousin who didn't exist in the old universe that Wally remembers.

    Superman's backstory isn't half as complicated as Wally because they tossed out the multiple timelines, multiple universes stuff and just made Superman's post crisis life canon with some extra time for Jon. Wally would be much, much simpler if he was just canon to the previous universe. That we have to explain that he's actually from this timeline, but has conflicting memories with the previous timeline, requires a lot more explanation.



    Bart Allen is just a survivor from the previous universe, which is easier to explain than "He thinks he's a survivor from the previous universe, but actually is from this universe, and the reason he has memories of the previous universe is..." etc etc. You have to jump through twenty hoops to actually let people know the deal with Wally and his memories and his kids who don't exist and why certain people can remember him but others can't.
    Dude, what are you talking about? People did not remember Bart. He seems to have a history, When he returned. Same for everyone else like Johnny thunder or Jay garrick.Manhunter was just made a leaguer and maybe a founder out of nowhere. And I said, there is no universes involved. There is only one universe with two time lines that are being focused in the hypertime. One unaltered timeline(post crisis) that did exist before and one altered(new 52) that exists because of manhattan.it is like going back in time. This altered timeline is fixing itself and trying to go back because of various entities such as mxyzptlk, speed force,brainiac.. Etc

    Wally is not the flash because he had memories of the past. Because those things happened in this timeline. Wally does not need to do any of that. All they have to do is say there was kid flash in this world who became the flash when Barry died. People know him as the other flash. And he has cousin with same name.so nick name are used. The kids thing is part of the old unaltered timeline which may or maynot be inserted to the current timeline like reborn did for superman.that would be a management decision.

    Only specific events in time of the old Continuity was changed by manhattan to create new52. Like killing Kents, Alan scott,imprisoning wally by using abra kadabra.. Etc. He did not do these things directly but influenced the events, changing timeline. New52 superman is postcrisis superman whose history was changed by manhattan by killing the Kents, isolating him from the daily planet. Due to the love of his family, mxy and braniac his timeline fixed itself. But could not fix fully because mxy's limit. So this in—flux new post reborn timeline exist.

  6. #2256
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Dude, what are you talking about? People did not remember Bart. He seems to have a history, When he returned. Same for everyone else like Johnny thunder or Jay garrick.Manhunter was just made a leaguer and maybe a founder out of nowhere. And I said, there is no universes involved. There is only one universe with two time lines that are being focused in the hypertime. One unaltered timeline(post crisis) that did exist before and one altered(new 52) that exists because of manhattan.it is like going back in time. This altered timeline is fixing itself and trying to go back because of various entities such as mxyzptlk, speed force,brainiac.. Etc

    Wally is not the flash because he had memories of the past. Because those things happened in this timeline. Wally does not need to do any of that. All they have to do is say there was kid flash in this world who became the flash when Barry died. People know him as the other flash. And he has cousin with same name.so nick name are used. The kids thing is part of the old unaltered timeline which may or maynot be inserted to the current timeline like reborn did for superman.that would be a management decision.

    Only specific events in time of the old Continuity was changed by manhattan to create new52. Like killing Kents, Alan scott,imprisoning wally by using abra kadabra.. Etc. He did not do these things directly but influenced the events, changing timeline. New52 superman is postcrisis superman whose history was changed by manhattan by killing the Kents, isolating him from the daily planet. Due to the love of his family, mxy and braniac his timeline fixed itself. But could not fix fully because mxy's limit. So this in—flux new post reborn timeline exist.
    What are you talking about? No one remembering Bart is exactly how it should be if he survived from the previous universe. Martian Manhunter was not made a founder, he just joined the league. So did Hawkgirl and Stewart. It wasn't "out of nowhere," they literally made a giant part of the Metal event about what Manhunter was doing lately. The JSA has been hinted at as having existed but, due to Johnny Thunder (and possible manipulation by Manhattan, but this is not confirmed) everyone forgot about them. That's a completely different situation from Bart -- someone who can only exist in a timeline where Barry and Iris go to the future to have kids. Something that clearly hasn't happened. Bart's just back because Wally broke the universe somehow and there's no greater explanation than that. And heck, if you want to tell me Bart's situation is convoluted then, you know what? Sure. I can see that.

    Those things did not happen in this timeline. Barry never died, Wally never met Linda. If he HAD met Linda then his magic memory resorting powers would've worked on her. The way Wally restores memories is proof positive of how he functions with regards to the two timelines. Also, you're assuming something about Wally, Abra Kadabra, and Manhattan. That has not been confirmed. For all we know Abra Kadabra is merely aware of what Manhattan did.



    This entire conversation stems from me stating that Wally's backstory is expressly convoluted. I can't see how anyone here is possibly arguing with me. Even IF, if you think Superman's story is more convoluted, that doesn't mean Wally's isn't! There isn't a limit on the number of characters who can have ass backwards backstories. Wally certainly does. I do not know why anyone is disagreeing with me here. It's a fact. People frequently have to be corrected or informed about how Wally even works, in this very thread and many before it. That's the end of it.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-08-2019 at 02:40 PM.

  7. #2257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Answer all the usual questions: Why is he called The Flash? Where was he before Rebirth? Why are there two Wally Wests? etc etc. Anyone who looks in his general direction with a slightly inquisitive eye will have a million annoying to explain questions. The dude is such a cavalcade of lunatic retcons and shenanigans it almost makes you think the company has it out for him.
    Or they can just move on and hope to have better stories with him.

    Just like they have learned to accept 5 different guys calling themselves Spider-Man. Especially the biracial one who needs to explain how he, his parents, uncle, best friend & HIS family, his roommate, a villain and her mother came to the main universe. And he KNOWS he is from another universe. And met his 616 version who is still alive.

    We won't even get into X-Men 2005.

    Nor Tanya Spears. Isn't she from another universe too?

    Where was Protector, Hotspot and the dead Titans in this book from? If there was no Titans-what team was Hotspot on? Where is his team at? And did Nabisco sponsor a team for Protector? How do you have Red Devil if he never met Blue Devil?

    Now if everybody can accept Miles Morales-they can accept Wally West. This book is filled with folks you can't explain where they came from.

  8. #2258
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Or they can just move on and hope to have better stories with him.

    Just like they have learned to accept 5 different guys calling themselves Spider-Man. Especially the biracial one who needs to explain how he, his parents, uncle, best friend & HIS family, his roommate, a villain and her mother came to the main universe. And he KNOWS he is from another universe. And met his 616 version who is still alive.

    We won't even get into X-Men 2005.

    Nor Tanya Spears. Isn't she from another universe too?

    Where was Protector, Hotspot and the dead Titans in this book from? If there was no Titans-what team was Hotspot on? Where is his team at? And did Nabisco sponsor a team for Protector? How do you have Red Devil if he never met Blue Devil?

    Now if everybody can accept Miles Morales-they can accept Wally West. This book is filled with folks you can't explain where they came from.
    "Did Nabisco sponsor a team for Protector?"

    LOL.

    (Also just had a thought, I want Martian Manhunter and the Protector to be fast friends over their connections to cookies.)
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  9. #2259
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Or they can just move on and hope to have better stories with him.

    Just like they have learned to accept 5 different guys calling themselves Spider-Man. Especially the biracial one who needs to explain how he, his parents, uncle, best friend & HIS family, his roommate, a villain and her mother came to the main universe. And he KNOWS he is from another universe. And met his 616 version who is still alive.

    We won't even get into X-Men 2005.

    Nor Tanya Spears. Isn't she from another universe too?

    Where was Protector, Hotspot and the dead Titans in this book from? If there was no Titans-what team was Hotspot on? Where is his team at? And did Nabisco sponsor a team for Protector? How do you have Red Devil if he never met Blue Devil?

    Now if everybody can accept Miles Morales-they can accept Wally West. This book is filled with folks you can't explain where they came from.
    Ostensibly, characters exist in the universe before their first appearance. Raven, Starfire, and Cyborg were people who joined a team but were technically still alive for years before the start of NTT in universe. You can do the same thing with all these Titans who didn't appear outside of a history that never existed. Hotspot existed in this universe in the same way he existed in the last one before he appeared, he just didn't show up until now. There's no conflict of continuity in these examples you're providing. And even if there was, the conflict is not a part of the character.

    Unlike Wally West, whose entire story is based on his fucked up continuity. That's kind of the big difference here. Miles isn't having flashbacks to his universe where Peter's dead (or...was, whatever, retcons) and it's undoing and reconstituting the memories of other people from his timeline in this universe. Miles just got copy and pasted from one universe to another and the entirety continuity smoothed out, with some nods to realizing it happened. And this is not me saying Miles' situation isn't convoluted -- it is! You are right. I am not disagreeing with you. I just don't get why anyone's disagreeing with me.

    What's the last story we saw Wally West in that wasn't him as a corpse? Flash War. And in Flash War every single moment of Wally was dedicated to weird flashbacks to scenes that did or didn't happen. Things that you'd need to explain or ignore if you hadn't read them (Golden cyborg? Flash Museum? Wally's Kids? Hunter Zolomon and Eobard Thawne?). That's the problem, that's why he's so convoluted. He's a character based on a history that doesn't exist, that DC dances around with references instead of working it back into the universe like they did Superman. This waffling on what is and isn't real is what makes Wally convoluted as much as how ridiculous his situation is.

    To have anyone sit here and tell me I'm wrong for saying Wally's backstory is convoluted is preposterous. It defacto is. That you can possibly name other characters that you think have convoluted backstories doesn't mean anything. There can be more than one character with a convoluted backstory.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-08-2019 at 03:28 PM.

  10. #2260

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    They cant jettison the entirety of N52 despite how much of a trashfire it was...due to it still having some fans...
    See, this is the part I don't understand, maybe because of the sort of reader I am. When DC says "Azzarello's Wonder Woman run never happened in the post-Rebirth continuity, but Diana spent her first 5-15 years [who knows, really?] as a superhero believing in Azzarello's Amazons and having hallucinatory/holodeck interactions with Azzarello's versions of the Greek gods, Hippolyta, and the Amazons," does that in any way satisfy fans of The New 52 Wonder Woman? As opposed to just saying: it all took place in a different timeline. In this timeline something else happened.

    To me, as somebody interested in how backstories feed into a character's character development and current status, it's an absurd thing to do to Wonder Woman's backstory. It means that any writer who writes a flashback to Dians's early superhero days has to (or should) remember that her memories were all twisted in a specific way then, and that if the writer has her visiting Themyscira or interacting with a god, it has to be to Azzarello's versions, and also "fake." It means that creating any meaningful relationship between Wonder Woman and Donna Troy as a young Wonder Girl faces enormous obstacles - again. And living for all those years with her memories of her loving mother and sisters manipulated (by people she should be able to trust) so she thought of them as murderous man-haters - that should be the real trauma she's revisiting in Heroes in Crisis - repeatedly, because that stuff doesn't go away overnight.

    Is that all worth it to New 52 fans just so a version they liked gets "preserved" as a bunch of fake memories? It's hard for me to tell, since I am openly not a fan of Azzarello's version (at least, not in continuity). But I think it would make me feel patronized and trivialized if I were. (And, as a fan of various characters, I have been in a similar situation, especially post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, so I think I can extrapolate on my reactions.)

    I suspect Snyders crisis will try to iron this out.
    What's Snyder's crisis?
    Last edited by Doctor Bifrost; 01-08-2019 at 03:23 PM.
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  11. #2261
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post



    What's Snyder's crisis?
    No clue. What we know is he has one coming up and Crisis are traditionally used to iron out continuity issues and this ridiculous "Whatever you want is canon" idea is an anethema to fundamental storytelling.

  12. #2262
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    I guess the theory thread got merged?

    So has anyone else noticed something in Roys hand in the first issue? The same hand is closed in the later issue scene.

  13. #2263
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    Tom King posted this on his Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...08172527722497
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-16-2019 at 08:11 AM.

  14. #2264
    Mighty Member Katana500's Avatar
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    love the art! who could it be!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Tom King posted this on his Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...08172527722497
    That picture feels so random compared to everything that's happened in the event. i wonder what it means.

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