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  1. #1771
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    His point was with characters who were notorious for having sexual assault and rape associated with them. To my knowledge I don't think those 3 have.
    When has Ivy raped or sexually assaulted anyone?

  2. #1772

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    All this is completely irrelevant, the Ivy who exists in current continuity has never killed anyone and certainly has never raped anyone comparing her to someone like purple man is ridiculous.

  3. #1773
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucius121 View Post
    All this is completely irrelevant, the Ivy who exists in current continuity has never killed anyone and certainly has never raped anyone comparing her to someone like purple man is ridiculous.
    Didn't Ivy make two guys make out with each other a while back,or was that non canon?

  4. #1774
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When has Ivy raped or sexually assaulted anyone?
    He was talking about Purple Man and Dr. Light, that people would freak out if someone tried to redeem them but people find it okay for Ivy since she is apart of ecology, queerness, and feminism like kjn said. Just read the last part of Phantom's post. I feel like you don't read the full posts and then we go off into tangents where I have to repeat myself and others.
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  5. #1775
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Should that give her a pass? She's not Catwoman who you can say was just a criminal for the thrills and didn't REALLY hurt anyone... Ivy has left a trail of bodies for decades. Doing it 'for the planet' doesn't make it acceptable. Certainly 'because she's a woman' shouldn't wash away the mind control aspects that people criticize Superman II for all the time...
    Not necessarily. And I note that three of the stories I pointed to ends with Ivy in Arkham, either on-camera or implied.

    But it places Poison Ivy squarely in the intersection of several questions that are important today, no matter if she is handled in-story as a villain, an anti-villain, an anti-hero, or a hero.

    I also note that even if Ivy is killed in HiC, even then I find the cover to be in excessively poor taste, and serves to normalise sexual violence in comics, general media, and our culture. That also is regardless of if one sees or treats Ivy as a villain, an anti-villain, an anti-hero, or a hero.

  6. #1776
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    He was talking about Purple Man and Dr. Light, that people would freak out if someone tried to redeem them but people find it okay for Ivy since she is apart of ecology, queerness, and feminism like kjn said. Just read the last part of Phantom's post. I feel like you don't read the full posts and then we go off into tangents where I have to repeat myself and others.
    I did read the full posts. That is why I am asking if Ivy has ever raped or sexually assaulted someone.

    Yes I am aware he was talking about Purple Man and Dr Light and them being redeemed and why that would be seen in poor taste. I am asking how this applies to Ivy who, to my knowledge, has not raped or sexually assaulted anyone. Since according to phantom, that would make her irredeemable. If you or he can answer that question, I would very much appreciate it.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-14-2018 at 07:55 AM.

  7. #1777

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When has Ivy raped or sexually assaulted anyone?
    Literally every time she has kissed someone without their consent.

    I don’t recall her ever explicitly being shown to rape anyone, though it has been heavily implied that she has had sex with men who were under her influence.
    Cheers - CL

  8. #1778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Avoiding all the other stupid **** about this comic that we're already aware of...did they literally change her costume just to show off her ****? Because her HIC costume was the full body one.

    Like, seriously. "On the cover, where Ivy is a corpse, make sure to have her face down, ass up, with her **** uncovered and her dead eyes looking right at the viewer instead of at rest state like a corpse would!" Who okayed this and why aren't they fired?
    I know one DC character that would approve that cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Even in death Ivy is sexualized .

  9. #1779
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I also note that even if Ivy is killed in HiC, even then I find the cover to be in excessively poor taste, and serves to normalise sexual violence in comics, general media, and our culture. That also is regardless of if one sees or treats Ivy as a villain, an anti-villain, an anti-hero, or a hero.
    How does this cover normalize sexual violence? I think you're reaching here. It shows she died in a pose that is entirely possible to die in without any form of sexual violence being involved. You may not like it but that doesn't mean that it celebrates sexual violence. Saying that it does takes away from legitimate arguments dealing with these issues. Could it have been done differently? Sure, but it wasn't and what we have, while not great, still doesn't do the things you're stating.

  10. #1780
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon1load View Post
    How does this cover normalize sexual violence?
    She has been murdered. That's violence. The artist choose to place her corpse in a boobs and butt pose, looking straight up her cleavage. That's sexualisation. By placing both in the same cover, sex and violence are associated with each other.

  11. #1781

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
    Literally every time she has kissed someone without their consent.

    I don’t recall her ever explicitly being shown to rape anyone, though it has been heavily implied that she has had sex with men who were under her influence.
    I don’t see the heavy implication your talking about, if anything Ivy is shown to hold the men she influences in contempt I have never seen it suggested that actually sleeps with them.

  12. #1782

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucius121 View Post
    I don’t see the heavy implication your talking about, if anything Ivy is shown to hold the men she influences in contempt I have never seen it suggested that actually sleeps with them.
    During Ostrander’s Suicide Squad (#41, I think), she is shown to have a third-world despot under her thumb and says she is “running” him with sex. It also was implied that she had sex with Count Vertigo while he was in her power.

    Basically the entirety of The Poison Tomorrow heavily implies that she had sex with multiple guys under her influence.

    During Mike Deodato’s Wonder Woman (#94ish) she’s shown to have an older guy under her thumb. She’s dressed in a nightie and, again, it’s not explicit but the implication is there.

    I realize those are older references, but the question said “ever”. DC’s moved away from depicting her that way over the years, probably because they realize how problematic it is.

    I’m sure she has contempt for her victims, though - most rapists do.
    Last edited by Coco Loco; 12-14-2018 at 09:49 AM.
    Cheers - CL

  13. #1783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon1load View Post
    How does this cover normalize sexual violence? I think you're reaching here. It shows she died in a pose that is entirely possible to die in without any form of sexual violence being involved. You may not like it but that doesn't mean that it celebrates sexual violence. Saying that it does takes away from legitimate arguments dealing with these issues. Could it have been done differently? Sure, but it wasn't and what we have, while not great, still doesn't do the things you're stating.
    You definitely can't die in that position, or at least be dead in that position. Your core and chest has to prop your ass up to be like that, something that is very hard to do as a corpse unless someone posed you there for a bit until rigor mortis sets in. It's a classic pin up model pose and those poses are rarely natural. Especially with the eye looking up at the viewer.

  14. #1784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You definitely can't die in that position, or at least be dead in that position. Your core and chest has to prop your ass up to be like that, something that is very hard to do as a corpse unless someone posed you there for a bit until rigor mortis sets in. It's a classic pin up model pose and those poses are rarely natural. Especially with the eye looking up at the viewer.
    You can't die with one leg stright behind you and one proped to your side? Are you sure about that? Hell, I lay like that when I go to sleep all the time. What expertise do you have to back this claim up? You have no idea what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Talon1load; 12-14-2018 at 10:51 AM.

  15. #1785
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    She has been murdered. That's violence. The artist choose to place her corpse in a boobs and butt pose, looking straight up her cleavage. That's sexualisation. By placing both in the same cover, sex and violence are associated with each other.
    She was murdered, yes. Her dead body is shown in a manner that you see as sexually provocative, ok. That does not constitue normalizing sexual violence. Sexual violence requires both to play a factor in the violence. This isn't displaying a sexual assualt or anything like that so your assertion doesn't make sense.

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