“Heroes in Crisis” Limited Series by Tom King & Clay Mann to Start in September

[phantom1592]

The folks who SHOULD take issue with this cover are too busy throwing fits about Netflix's She-ra & Squirrel Girl's body shapes and female lead books at Marvel.

Yeah this is cheesecake art to sell more copies. I would not have okayed it. This book got enough issues without trying to make death look sexy. Leave that to Grim Fairy Tales.

Poison Ivy of all characters was born and thrived on cheesecake at best... and at worst a sexual predator. It frankly feels pretty appropriate to me that she dies how she lived... There are a lot of characters to get annoyed at cheesecake artwork for... Poison Ivy isnt' one of them.

[BohemiaDrinker]

So, Harley is gonna see this scene, assume Wally killed Ivy, and that's why she kills Wally. Which only leaves open the true identity of the killer, probably Zolomon.

Meh.

[numberthirty]

So, Harley is gonna see this scene, assume Wally killed Ivy, and that's why she kills Wally. Which only leaves open the true identity of the killer, probably Zolomon.

Meh.

Assuming the cover is a reasonable representation of what will be in the comic.

[Dred]

Poison Ivy of all characters was born and thrived on cheesecake at best... and at worst a sexual predator. It frankly feels pretty appropriate to me that she dies how she lived... There are a lot of characters to get annoyed at cheesecake artwork for... Poison Ivy isnt' one of them.

It's a corpse, dude. If you don't find the absolute grossness of sexualizing a corpse then I don't know what to say. Also just because a character has been used in skeevy stuff before doesn't mean we should support skeevy stuff now.

[phantom1592]

It's a corpse, dude. If you don't find the absolute grossness of sexualizing a corpse then I don't know what to say. Also just because a character has been used in skeevy stuff before doesn't mean we should support skeevy stuff now.

Well, I'm not turned on by it... but what angle would have been BETTER for Ivy to die in? She's always cheesecake however she's drawn from any angle. It's her 'thing'. Maybe they could have had a sheet over her or something... but It's still Ivy...


I actually think killing off a character like that is the best step. Her entire career has been one poison make out session after another... In this age of not tolerating sexualized characters... she really needs to go. Just like I don't want to see Doctor Light redeemed and come back from being a rapist and child murderer... I don't want to see all the stuff that Ivy did ignored or retconned as some kind of 'empowerment' thing.

[CaptCleghorn]

Could Ivy's (and harley's to an extent) presence at Sanctuary be something similar to Doc Savage's "Crime College" where he used surgical and psychological tactics to rehabilitate? Not that I have a clue about how redeemable Harley and Ivy are in current canon, but it seems they have an appeal to be made into good people.

[Agent Z]

Well, I'm not turned on by it... but what angle would have been BETTER for Ivy to die in?

Literally any other angle. Especially since this book is trying to evoke a sense of sorrow over this character's death.

She's always cheesecake however she's drawn from any angle. It's her 'thing'. Maybe they could have had a sheet over her or something... but It's still Ivy...

Exactly. Ivy's not going to transform into a different person just because she's not being posed like a pin up model.

I actually think killing off a character like that is the best step. Her entire career has been one poison make out session after another... In this age of not tolerating sexualized characters... she really needs to go. Just like I don't want to see Doctor Light redeemed and come back from being a rapist and child murderer... I don't want to see all the stuff that Ivy did ignored or retconned as some kind of 'empowerment' thing.

Who's talking about ignoring or retconning her crimes here? People are complaining about an unnecessarily sexualized cover featuring a dead character.

[Dred]

Well, I'm not turned on by it... but what angle would have been BETTER for Ivy to die in? She's always cheesecake however she's drawn from any angle. It's her 'thing'. Maybe they could have had a sheet over her or something... but It's still Ivy...


I actually think killing off a character like that is the best step. Her entire career has been one poison make out session after another... In this age of not tolerating sexualized characters... she really needs to go. Just like I don't want to see Doctor Light redeemed and come back from being a rapist and child murderer... I don't want to see all the stuff that Ivy did ignored or retconned as some kind of 'empowerment' thing.

She could've just been drawn normally. Like, a normal person who just died, on the ground. Like literally any of the dead people we've seen so far (besides Blue Jay, who was a pile of gore being eaten by a bird). There is not some cosmic obligation that forces you to warp the universe to show off Poison Ivy's chest and butt.

And a character that was once used as horndog bait doesn't have to be that forever. Do you think Batman should be what he was the first day he was created? Should Superman no longer fly? I don't get why you're beating this horse but it's not necessary or even right.

[phantom1592]

She could've just been drawn normally. Like, a normal person who just died, on the ground. Like literally any of the dead people we've seen so far (besides Blue Jay, who was a pile of gore being eaten by a bird). There is not some cosmic obligation that forces you to warp the universe to show off Poison Ivy's chest and butt.

meh... even then she'd be in a skin tight costume with the curves that she's famous for. I think we can all agree that this book flounders between seriously inappropriate and outright garbage... but this isn't the straw that breaks the camels back for me. It's no more or less than what I've expected.

And a character that was once used as horndog bait doesn't have to be that forever. Do you think Batman should be what he was the first day he was created? Should Superman no longer fly? I don't get why you're beating this horse but it's not necessary or even right.

I'd say it's what do you allow the character to come back from. Ivy's entire concept has been about mind control, rape, and non-consensual sexual aggression... She's basically a Green version of the Purple Man. Out of all the characters that DC has available to push some kind of 'anti-hero' concept for... I'm just astounded that Poison Ivy gets so much forgiveness. It's not even a case of 'Superman couldn't fly'... She was this character in her first appearance and has been for what? 60 years?? It's more like saying Superman doesn't need to be from Krypton!

Like I said, if it was Purple Man or Dr. Light who was getting the clean slate and pushed as an Anti-hero... people would be raging in the street. Society now days has to draw a hard line... and if these actions and characters are in the book, it REALLY has to stay as 'villains' Though frankly I think the sex crimes characters all need to disappear. There's just some things that I don't trust comic books to do respectfully.... HiC is an excellent example.

[Agent Z]

meh... even then she'd be in a skin tight costume with the curves that she's famous for.

Yeah but those curves wouldn’t the focus.

I'd say it's what do you allow the character to come back from. Ivy's entire concept has been about mind control, rape, and non-consensual sexual aggression... She's basically a Green version of the Purple Man. Out of all the characters that DC has available to push some kind of 'anti-hero' concept for... I'm just astounded that Poison Ivy gets so much forgiveness. It's not even a case of 'Superman couldn't fly'... She was this character in her first appearance and has been for what? 60 years?? It's more like saying Superman doesn't need to be from Krypton!

Like I said, if it was Purple Man or Dr. Light who was getting the clean slate and pushed as an Anti-hero... people would be raging in the street. Society now days has to draw a hard line... and if these actions and characters are in the book, it REALLY has to stay as 'villains' Though frankly I think the sex crimes characters all need to disappear. There's just some things that I don't trust comic books to do respectfully.... HiC is an excellent example.

Again, what does any of this have to do with how Ivy is being drawn on the cover?

[kjn]

Well, I'm not turned on by it... but what angle would have been BETTER for Ivy to die in? She's always cheesecake however she's drawn from any angle. It's her 'thing'. Maybe they could have had a sheet over her or something... but It's still Ivy...

I actually think killing off a character like that is the best step. Her entire career has been one poison make out session after another... In this age of not tolerating sexualized characters... she really needs to go. Just like I don't want to see Doctor Light redeemed and come back from being a rapist and child murderer... I don't want to see all the stuff that Ivy did ignored or retconned as some kind of 'empowerment' thing.

Have you followed Poison Ivy's development? She might have started as a cheesecake seductress, but she's evolved into the DC character who probably embodies the most of the questions that are hugely relevant today: ecology, queerness, feminism, and the cycle of going from victim to perpetrator and back again.

I can recommend Cast Shadows (Nocenti and van Fleet, 2004), Hothouse (Moore and Russell, 1993), When Pamela Gets Blue (Simone and Gill, Batgirl Annual 2014), or Ends of the Earth part 2 (Snyder and Lotay, 2016) for non-cheesecake and nuanced depictions of Poison Ivy.

[phantom1592]

Have you followed Poison Ivy's development? She might have started as a cheesecake seductress, but she's evolved into the DC character who probably embodies the most of the questions that are hugely relevant today: ecology, queerness, feminism, and the cycle of going from victim to perpetrator and back again.

Should that give her a pass? She's not Catwoman who you can say was just a criminal for the thrills and didn't REALLY hurt anyone... Ivy has left a trail of bodies for decades. Doing it 'for the planet' doesn't make it acceptable. Certainly 'because she's a woman' shouldn't wash away the mind control aspects that people criticize Superman II for all the time...


There is a weird double standard in DC lately. The idea of Harley bouncing between girlfriend of the biggest mass murderer ever and happy go lucky anti-hero is insane to begin with... but Ivy's just... horrible. Making her bi-sexual only makes her worse. Sets her up to seduce and murder EITHER Sex... A cross between Bill Cosby and Ra's al Ghul… but toss in a couple retcons and people want to accept her as heroic...

Mind boggling.

As I said, if she was the Purple Man or Dr. Light, two notorious sexual assualters who a writer was trying to redeem then people wouldn't be throwing a fit if they were murdered in a story like this. It would be celebrated.

[Korath]

Well, I'm not turned on by it... but what angle would have been BETTER for Ivy to die in? She's always cheesecake however she's drawn from any angle. It's her 'thing'. Maybe they could have had a sheet over her or something... but It's still Ivy...


I actually think killing off a character like that is the best step. Her entire career has been one poison make out session after another... In this age of not tolerating sexualized characters... she really needs to go. Just like I don't want to see Doctor Light redeemed and come back from being a rapist and child murderer... I don't want to see all the stuff that Ivy did ignored or retconned as some kind of 'empowerment' thing.

Damage, of all books, did something far better for Ivy than anything the Batman and HiC books did since Rebirth.

And it wasn't killing her or denying her on-again, off-again man-killing nature. It was actually embracing it and hinting that she would be the next Avatar of the Green, used by it to wage war on Man to preserve itself.

Which, considering all the horrors Man commits against Nature, isn't exactly evil, if you ask me.

[Agent Z]

Should that give her a pass? She's not Catwoman who you can say was just a criminal for the thrills and didn't REALLY hurt anyone... Ivy has left a trail of bodies for decades. Doing it 'for the planet' doesn't make it acceptable. Certainly 'because she's a woman' shouldn't wash away the mind control aspects that people criticize Superman II for all the time...


There is a weird double standard in DC lately. The idea of Harley bouncing between girlfriend of the biggest mass murderer ever and happy go lucky anti-hero is insane to begin with... but Ivy's just... horrible. Making her bi-sexual only makes her worse. Sets her up to seduce and murder EITHER Sex... A cross between Bill Cosby and Ra's al Ghul… but toss in a couple retcons and people want to accept her as heroic...

Mind boggling.

As I said, if she was the Purple Man or Dr. Light, two notorious sexual assualters who a writer was trying to redeem then people wouldn't be throwing a fit if they were murdered in a story like this. It would be celebrated.

To my knowledge, no one has tried to redeem Purple Man and Dr Light. They have, however, tried to redeem Riddler, Black Adam and Lex Luthor. Didn't see much complaining there.

[byrd156]

To my knowledge, no one has tried to redeem Purple Man and Dr Light. They have, however, tried to redeem Riddler, Black Adam and Lex Luthor. Didn't see much complaining there.

His point was with characters who were notorious for having sexual assault and rape associated with them. To my knowledge I don't think those 3 have.