Thor #1 Spoilers

[The Cool Thatguy]

I really don’t have a preference as to how Loki is portrayed as long as he is written well. However, I honestly think you have missed the point of these stories. At a fundamental level Loki is not dead. Kid Loki was only a part of Loki. As others have pointed out this is a self mutilation of sorts. If I called my arm steve and cut it off that wouldn’t be murder.

Some people here seem to be operating under a weird idea that individual aspects of Loki are distinct and individual. Loki is the sum of parts. He is two characters throughout JitM, he is at least two characters in Ewing. You only seem to want to focus on one element of him and ignore the other. JitM very clearly ends on a recombination. It is only murder by analogy. There Kid Loki was just part of Loki. He didn’t even die. What dies was an artificial personality. A Loki construct designed to be optimistic, created to believe in a lie.

Kid Loki was a lie told by Loki.

P.S. I am on far more familiar ground on Young Avengers. Having read it at least five times. In that story Loki is growing up. He is adolescent, self-doubting, fighting with his conscience Loki. He accuses himself of murder, he even occasionally believes it. He is coming to terms with who he is and what he will become. His conscience declares himself a murderer, he does this in recognition that the person that thought himself to be Kid Loki is now dead. It's all an analogy to growing up and putting aside childishness. Young Avengers in general is about the existential angst of adolescence.

P.P.S. Loki is the antagonist of Young Avengers. Everyone has to deal with him, including him.

"weird idea that individual aspects of Loki are distinct and individual"

Maybe that's because the destruction of the crown required Kid Loki's death? And Loki, a master of the mystic arts, confessed to Kid Loki's death?

I'm reminded of an old Avengers story in which Zeus created the perfect woman for Hercules, as bait for Hera. She was 100% sentient, even thought Zeus created her out of thin air. And when he ended her, Herc rightfully called his father out for what amounted to an act of murder.

How Kid Loki came about simply shouldn't matter. He has a right to decide his own future, character and destiny. Your arm cannot make decisions for itself. It is a thing. Kid Loki was a person. Kid Loki could his own decisions.

The current Loki stole that from him. That was made clear when Kid Loki died, Young Avengers showed that to be Loki's thoughts on the matter as did his confession to Thor, verified by Verity herself a mystic lie detector.

All you have on your side is your personal interpretation, one that so conveniently absolves Loki. So that he can be your Draco in Leather pants

[Prof. Warren]

All you have on your side is your personal interpretation

...And isn't that all you have on your side?

[The Cool Thatguy]

...And isn't that all you have on your side?

Well, yeah. Besides a confession while unable to lie, in a room with a lie detector and the destruction of the hell crown requiring kid Loki's destruction.

Ya know, facts

[rpmaluki]

I do think that what happened to Kid Loki is open to interpretation for the reader even if Loki himself sees it as murder. That's what he believes that's why it's not a lie when speaking with Verity.

[Rosebunse]

There is no question that what happened to kidLoki was murder by Ikol/Teen Loki. Ikol planned this all just to get kidLoki to have a good reputation and to essentially use his good nature to murder him.

The question is, did Ikol really have a choice and should we maybe put more of the blame on the original Loki, who after all did plan his own suicide and resurrection. The guy basically created, or had a hand in creating, two sentient beings whose only purpose in life was to be tortured and used as tools for his purposes.

There can even be some discussion as to when Ikol realized he was essentially Loki's clone and just how aware he was of what he was doing to kidLoki. And really, we're there alternatives to his plan where he could have came about and not have had to kill kidLoki?

I think part of his guilt and horror at what he did is that, yes, he probably could have done something different.

[Frontier]

I do think that what happened to Kid Loki is open to interpretation for the reader even if Loki himself sees it as murder. That's what he believes that's why it's not a lie when speaking with Verity.

As did Thor.

[rpmaluki]

As did Thor.

True but I was going with what was being discussed most recently.

How this started was a belief that Thor is only mad at Loki for what he did to Freyja and that inaccurate. He was angry over KL and now he's angry over Freyja. Eventually he'll be angry over something else that Loki does. This seems to be their relationship now.

[brettc1]

I do think that what happened to Kid Loki is open to interpretation for the reader even if Loki himself sees it as murder. That's what he believes that's why it's not a lie when speaking with Verity.

"You told me Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father."

"Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Very enjoyable issue. Would have liked to see more of the Thor/Subby fight. I don't think Thor is much of a match for Juggy on his home field without mjolnir. Even then Thor would have trouble penetrating his force field. Glad to see Odinson back. The old gang is back. Thor, Loki, Jane and Skurge. That was great seeing the Executioner on the last page.

[Prof. Warren]

Well, yeah. Besides a confession while unable to lie, in a room with a lie detector and the destruction of the hell crown requiring kid Loki's destruction.

Ya know, facts

As several people have given their own interpretations, ones that see these events in a different light, it bears pointing out - again - that this is about, you know, opinions.

You're obviously very wedded to your own reading of these events but fiction is open to interpretation.

I suspect your take on this is a very reductive one but, of course, you're welcome to it.

[Raye]

True but I was going with what was being discussed most recently.

How this started was a belief that Thor is only mad at Loki for what he did to Freyja and that inaccurate. He was angry over KL and now he's angry over Freyja. Eventually he'll be angry over something else that Loki does. This seems to be their relationship now.

And, as mentioned before, there's no saying he has to be mad about just one thing at a time. It doesn't have to be 'mad about Kid Loki OR Freyja' it can be 'mad about Kid Loki AND Freyja' and I still really don't think it NEEDS to be mentioned specifically, at least not in this particular scene. If readers are aware of it, fine, if not, it still works. It's fine. All that's really needed for the story is 'Thor is pissed at Loki' the whys are a bit irrelevant just now. Sure, there was one reason given on panel in this story since it made sense in context since Thor was talking to Freyja, and then Loki mentioned her because he still thought she hated his guts, but the fact remains that it doesn't have to cancel out other reasons.

But, I do think this is just the starting point, not the new forever status of their relationship. I think, if you look at the characters and relationships between them, a major thing that is emerging is that a lot of them are pissed at someone else, and are holding grudges. the lot of them too stubborn and proud for their own good. Sure, some are more justified than others, but still. And I suspect it's going to be heading towards a need for repentance and forgiveness all round in order to mend the family.

and my 2 cents, on the whole murder thing... I think it is a complicated situation that absolutely can be seen in different ways. this was clearly expressed in Young Avengers and Agent of Asgard, where different interpretations of it were on the page. He clearly feels guilty about it and surrounding events, guilt so bad it actually manifested physically and attacked him, which certainly indicates he feels responsible. But he did also say he was just the weapon, not the one who pulled the trigger. And you could certainly look at it in that way as well, even if it may just be him trying to make himself feel better about the situation. Also, Verity didn't seem to see it as murder when he told her about it. So yeah, there absolutely is some wiggle room for different interpretations there, and I think that was intentional. His guilt kind of depends on how much you consider him to currently be the old Loki, or a brand new version, or something in between, and that's... fuzzy. There are a lot of different opinions about that. And again, i think this is intentional, because as a character he kinda should be ambiguous and hard to pin down.

[brettc1]

As several people have given their own interpretations, ones that see these events in a different light, it bears pointing out - again - that this is about, you know, opinions.

You're obviously very wedded to your own reading of these events but fiction is open to interpretation.

I suspect your take on this is a very reductive one but, of course, you're welcome to it.

I wouldn't have called it reductive. Certainly not when we have JKtheMac arguing that we should read these comics with the innocence and joy of a child.

And I think a case could be made for this being murder - From Incredible Hulk #367 by Peter David

Madman.jpg

[DurararaFTW]

"weird idea that individual aspects of Loki are distinct and individual"

Maybe that's because the destruction of the crown required Kid Loki's death? And Loki, a master of the mystic arts, confessed to Kid Loki's death?

I'm reminded of an old Avengers story in which Zeus created the perfect woman for Hercules, as bait for Hera. She was 100% sentient, even thought Zeus created her out of thin air. And when he ended her, Herc rightfully called his father out for what amounted to an act of murder.

Did that woman call herself Zeus? Look like Zeus? Have Zeus' memories? Did Zeus' brothers consider this woman their brother and get angry with their father when not giving this woman fatherly love? No? Then it's a false parallel. Kid Loki was, is, and never was anything but Loki. Loki, as you might've noticed isn't dead.

How Kid Loki came about simply shouldn't matter. He has a right to decide his own future, character and destiny. Your arm cannot make decisions for itself. It is a thing. Kid Loki was a person. Kid Loki could his own decisions.

The current Loki stole that from him. That was made clear when Kid Loki died, Young Avengers showed that to be Loki's thoughts on the matter as did his confession to Thor, verified by Verity herself a mystic lie detector.

All you have on your side is your personal interpretation, one that so conveniently absolves Loki. So that he can be your Draco in Leather pants

Yes, your arm doesn't make decisions for itself. but not every single lifeform in the universe operates on the same rules as The Cool Thatguy and as such, has an equivalent assembly of moral options before him. If your arm, or rather your entire body, DID gain sentience and decided to make hit's own decisions, even if your responsible for making that happen, you'd still have to deal with that situation.

You say JKtheMac's side conveniently absolves Loki of responsibility but your side seems to absolve Kid Loki of every complication associated with being Loki will still letting him be Loki in every way that is wholesome and family friendly. No, just because the manner and timing of Kid Loki's death was arranged to be strategically opportune, doesn't mean Kid Loki was ever a nonessential part of Loki and stopping being part of the greater whole was ever an option.

[JKtheMac]

On DEATH!

You're saying a lot but I'm not seeing any evidence. Give me a scan. Hell, give me an issue number and I'll go look it up myself.

I believe it is in Thor #354 that Thor says "The Odin-force has not returned to Asgard." as evidence Odin was not dead. So if that's what your citing, you are arguing against your own point.

I mean, how would Odin have even kept Cul imprisoned without the Odin-power? And nobody else has been seen to use it. It's a nice theory but it lacks empirical evidence to support it.

It’s a theory that fits the subtext. I never claimed it was definite. Evidence would destroy the unresolved suspense. Because Odin and Freyja are background characters and the story isn’t actually about them right now I wouldn’t expect to see any evidence until their relationship issues come to a head.

[JKtheMac]

you need to put in a winky, man.

Edit - and hey, I wouldn't necessarily blame you for going there. Aaron does put in quite a bit of subtle [and at times not so subtle] 'boys am dumb' subtext.

I think he does some ‘Aren't some boys incredibly touchy about girls in comics?’ metatext and broadly feminist subtext that seems to get missed by the said boys sometimes.