Thor #1 Spoilers

[The Cool Thatguy]

There is a difference between telling you what I perceive you to be saying and me telling you what you are thinking. Again I am specifically saying this was addressed and the issue was closed. You just don’t seem to have interpreted the closure in the same way I did.

Then one can hope you could cite the issue?

Because even subtext needs...text

[JKtheMac]

Then one can hope you could cite the issue?

Because even subtext needs...text

Read the post above with the picture. That’s my entire point laid out. Along with the post about just above it. That’s all I am going to put here. I have already stated I am not rereading AoA just to find evidence you probably won’t agree with anyway. I don’t have any reason to convince you. I just want to clearly express my perspective that it is not fair to attack writers based on this kind of thing when they are all doing a lot more than you seem to acknowledge.

Gillen, Ewing and Aaron have all acknowledged the work that has gone before and all moved things forward.

[DurararaFTW]

Taylor was a magical construction who was sentient, who had a right to her own life and could make her own decisions, just like Kid Loki. How she came about shouldn't matter.

It might matter to the person from whom the new entity came about from, not everything comes without a cost to anyone else.

Though, another parallel would be Reverend John Madrox. A clone created by Jamie Madrox (that's his whole thing) who forged his life and identity away from Jamie. When Jamie tried to reabsorb him, John fought back, pointing out that it would be murder. That John would only exist as information inside of Jamie, and he would functionally die, because everyone in his life would continue on without him.

The same is true of Kid Loki. Do you really think that Kid Loki would do the things that current Loki has done?

This is a more apt parallel, but off course there is no reason to specify Reverend Madrox. Becoming a reverend didn't give him individual sentience. He always had sentience, choice, an identity and a life, and subsequentely every single one of the thousands of Madrox clones we've seen be reabsorbed are the victims of murder or assisted suicide under that reasoning. Reverend John Madrox wasn't made better or different then any of the others, he gained a different perspective. And if you put him up and some other Madrox clones up to a mystical lie detector you'd get different answers. Madrox collegues at X-Factor know all of this. But instead of seeing him as a mass murderer, they acknowledge that having the Multiple Man's powers means having to make these choices. Don't judge non-humans by human laws.

Causing sentience in something does not give someone absolute control over that thing. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

That's hardly an answer to the question. You would immediately decide you have no say over your body, let it go on it's way, regardless of how objectively abnormal and uprooted a state this decision leaves yourself in?

Kid Loki didn't ask to be born, and as a new creation isn't responsible for the actions of those who came before. He was an unwitting pawn, so no, he wouldn't be responsible for older Loki's sins.

Loki isn't new. Loki is a thousands year old being. He IS Loki. Hence why Thor, the thousands year old being that is brother to Loki, sees him as his brother Loki.

Reductive how, exactly? Because it doesn't absolve Loki? All things considered, my interpretation offers more tragedy and nuance than 'Loki just fixed himself up, no harm no foul!'

I don't think it does. There was harm and there was foul in the fixing of Loki. But that tragedy doesn't in fact mean it wasn't fixing a broken existence. That there was a costfree magical fairytale way for both Ikol and Kid Loki to ever be complete without each other. Just cause Kid Loki, one in a line of many reincarnations of Loki, deserved better then being Loki doesn't mean there was anything in the cards for Kid Loki other then being Loki.

[brettc1]

No it doesn't. Until a story is changed it remains the same, addressed or not.

Also, don't YOU tell ME what I am thinking, hmm?

I simply disagreed with the notion that current Loki didn't kill Kid Loki. The 'Draco in Leather pants' routine has long gotten old.

I guess its possible Thor realizes that at some point K-Loki would have died anyway. Because nobody stays the same, not even gods. For those of us upwards of 50, most of us are so different from the people we were 30 or 40 years ago that that person could hardly be thought of to exist any more.

This is why in Dr Who when the Doctor meets himself the two of them never get on. One sees the person he feels he has outgrown, the other is confronted with someone he cannot imagine becoming.

Look at Thor in this issue. He states he feels like "the worst Thor ever." I mean jeez - he IS Thor, and he feels like a failure at being himself.

That sucks. And it kind of undercut the whole idea that you can be Thor without the hammer. You can, technically, but you'll never be as good as if you had it. Not nearly as good.

[Rosebunse]

Is Madrox really a good comparison? Most of the clones didn't fight being reabsorbed and truth be told, Jamie's powers are a natural part of who he is. Plus, Jamie usually did use them for good and not a part of some scheme that not tricked tons of people, but also did murder the resulting clone. I mean, I think you can make a case that maybe Ikol wasn't entirely sure what he was doing and thus can't be held entirely accountable, but that doesn't negate the maliciousness of the action nor change the fact that it was murder.

Ikol knew what he was doing was wrong, which is why he was so riddled with guilt.

We've seen that Jamie feels a lot of guilt over what he did to some of his clones, but for a long time he, unlike Ikol, didn't realize what he was doing to the clones.

I don't see what's wrong with the murder of kidLoki as being a turning point for not just Ikol/TeenLoki, but Loki in general. And it wasn't just the murder of kidLoki, mind you. For that plan to even work, it required Loki to drive Osborn back into insanity, for that little incident that kicked off Siege that killed dozens of people and Siege itself. This isn't even getting into all the crap kidLoki had to deal with and all the resulting stuff from that.

[ZeroBG82]

He's not old Loki. Old Loki DIED and got reincarnated as Kid Loki, Loki's back in the more complete form that he currently holds because Kid Loki died. Kid Loki was not cloned from a blood sample that Loki's body naturally replaced overtime. He was a piece of the greater puzzle that is Loki and made whole again. Kid Loki had a soul, it is Loki's soul. For Thor to judge Loki for what he did is to say he doesn't have right to possess his own soul. It was all cruelly done but there are much bigger crimes Thor can be taking up with Loki then self-mutilating. Pick any number of massacres.

Except that isn't actually what JiM presented us with. Kid Loki was a creation of Old Loki, designed with the express purpose of buying him a new, more innocent reputation without having to do any work to redeem himself. Kid Loki actually WAS a separate entity, with his own soul and free will. Who loved his brother and tried to find a path out from under all the evil and manipulations of the Old Loki and to a future that could be his alone. His innocence, his heroics, were his own. And then Old Loki murdered him, in order to claim the face and reputation of a more innocent, well respected Loki.

Old Loki wanted all the benefits of changing, without having to actually change. Kid Loki was his shortcut, letting somebody else do all the heavy lifting while he stole the benefits out from under him. The greatest tragedy of JiM is that Kid Loki couldn't escape Old Loki. That Old Loki got away with the perfect murder. Gillen went on to show that Old Loki wasn't completely unaffected by these events in his Young Avengers, which saw New Old Loki (still wearing Kid Loki) try to gain control of Wiccan's mystical powers. And at least implying that Old Loki may not quite be Old Loki anymore, having been changed by the brutal actions that led to his then-current form. Teen Loki was the result, a kind of Hybrid New Loki, born from accepting the guilt he felt at murdering the innocent soul he created to buy his way into good graces again.

[DurararaFTW]

Is Madrox really a good comparison? Most of the clones didn't fight being reabsorbed and truth be told, Jamie's powers are a natural part of who he is. Plus, Jamie usually did use them for good and not a part of some scheme that not tricked tons of people, but also did murder the resulting clone. I mean, I think you can make a case that maybe Ikol wasn't entirely sure what he was doing and thus can't be held entirely accountable, but that doesn't negate the maliciousness of the action nor change the fact that it was murder.

Ikol knew what he was doing was wrong, which is why he was so riddled with guilt.

We've seen that Jamie feels a lot of guilt over what he did to some of his clones, but for a long time he, unlike Ikol, didn't realize what he was doing to the clones.

I don't see what's wrong with the murder of kidLoki as being a turning point for not just Ikol/TeenLoki, but Loki in general. And it wasn't just the murder of kidLoki, mind you. For that plan to even work, it required Loki to drive Osborn back into insanity, for that little incident that kicked off Siege that killed dozens of people and Siege itself. This isn't even getting into all the crap kidLoki had to deal with and all the resulting stuff from that.

Jamie feel guilt but he does still do it. Every time he makes a clone, he makes an individual being that makes his own choice, has the potential to live a life fully seperate from Jamie, that Jamie nevitably cuts short, ending what they might've been. And the Marvel Universe looks at Jamie and goes "you do you, man". Loki is the God of Lies. If he's not manipulating his brother, he's not Loki. Kid Loki was the ruse, the jig was gonna be up at some point. On some level Thor expects this from his brother. It is no great wonder that Kid Loki isn't the first thing Thor brings up every time he meet Loki. Loki has enacted many ruses, not many of them didn't involve innocent lives getting hurt. This time it was just Loki's own.

Except that isn't actually what JiM presented us with. Kid Loki was a creation of Old Loki, designed with the express purpose of buying him a new, more innocent reputation without having to do any work to redeem himself. Kid Loki actually WAS a separate entity, with his own soul and free will. Who loved his brother and tried to find a path out from under all the evil and manipulations of the Old Loki and to a future that could be his alone. His innocence, his heroics, were his own. And then Old Loki murdered him, in order to claim the face and reputation of a more innocent, well respected Loki.

Old Loki wanted all the benefits of changing, without having to actually change. Kid Loki was his shortcut, letting somebody else do all the heavy lifting while he stole the benefits out from under him. The greatest tragedy of JiM is that Kid Loki couldn't escape Old Loki. That Old Loki got away with the perfect murder. Gillen went on to show that Old Loki wasn't completely unaffected by these events in his Young Avengers, which saw New Old Loki (still wearing Kid Loki) try to gain control of Wiccan's mystical powers. And at least implying that Old Loki may not quite be Old Loki anymore, having been changed by the brutal actions that led to his then-current form. Teen Loki was the result, a kind of Hybrid New Loki, born from accepting the guilt he felt at murdering the innocent soul he created to buy his way into good graces again.

He created him from himself. That's why he's Kid Loki, not Kid Some Other Bloke. Old Loki wanted to come out of this with a more usable reputation but unchanged, that's what neccesitated Ikol. But Old Loki still DIED, reincarnated as Kid Loki and Ikol. Saying that Kid Loki is not Loki (yet somehow Thor's brother all the same) but Ikol is, is wrong. Ikol was created with Old Loki's mind and memories, but intentionally incomplete, in ways that Kid Loki is, his murder of Kid Loki was one he was driven to, by himself. Just like Kid Loki was driven to allowing it, by himself. Because Old Loki knows himself and what he would do pretty well, Kid Loki's love for his brother, is Loki's love for his brother. Loki ended up like he wanted, same as ever on the inside, trusted on the outside, but he let himself die, had to change a part of himself into Kid Loki first, then kill that part as well. He changed back, rather then that the part that changed was some other person all along.

[Rosebunse]

The issue there is that there have been plenty of times where Jamie reabsorbing his clones hasn't been shown to be a morally right thing. I mean, the guy basically killed his own child by sheer accident because of it.

The reason he gets a pass is because, normally, the clones are prone to causing trouble and the ones who aren't are sometimes allowed to stay. Jamie also doesn't create the clones just to hurt others and the clones themselves. Oftentimes the clones are fine to be returned to him, which is why it took him so long to realize that something might have been wrong.

[rpmaluki]

Jamie feel guilt but he does still do it. Every time he makes a clone, he makes an individual being that makes his own choice, has the potential to live a life fully seperate from Jamie, that Jamie nevitably cuts short, ending what they might've been. And the Marvel Universe looks at Jamie and goes "you do you, man". Loki is the God of Lies. If he's not manipulating his brother, he's not Loki. Kid Loki was the ruse, the jig was gonna be up at some point. On some level Thor expects this from his brother. It is no great wonder that Kid Loki isn't the first thing Thor brings up every time he meet Loki. Loki has enacted many ruses, not many of them didn't involve innocent lives getting hurt. This time it was just Loki's own.



He created him from himself. That's why he's Kid Loki, not Kid Some Other Bloke. Old Loki wanted to come out of this with a more usable reputation but unchanged, that's what neccesitated Ikol. But Old Loki still DIED, reincarnated as Kid Loki and Ikol. Saying that Kid Loki is not Loki (yet somehow Thor's brother all the same) but Ikol is, is wrong. Ikol was created with Old Loki's mind and memories, but intentionally incomplete, in ways that Kid Loki is, his murder of Kid Loki was one he was driven to, by himself. Just like Kid Loki was driven to allowing it, by himself. Because Old Loki knows himself and what he would do pretty well, Kid Loki's love for his brother, is Loki's love for his brother. Loki ended up like he wanted, same as ever on the inside, trusted on the outside, but he let himself die, had to change a part of himself into Kid Loki first, then kill that part as well. He changed back, rather then that the part that changed was some other person all along.

As I like to say, Loki is Loki is Loki, no matter the iteration be it Old, King, Siege, Kid, Ikol, Lady, AoA or whatever this new version is. They are all parts that just make up the whole, good, bad and ugly.

[brettc1]

It should be interesting to see what Balder has to say to both his brothers.

[Rosebunse]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but if it was between Loki and Baldur, Odin and Freya would probably pick Loki and find some way to justify it later.

[Mantis Dad]

Just read the new issue. I had it for a couple of days, but forgot to read it. I enjoyed the humor in the first story, like Thor living on a tug boat, and Thori laying on his back after eating the shark made me laugh. The art hurt my eyes for the first few pages, but then my brain adjusted to it, and I guess I can live with that for a few issues. The back up story was good. I enjoyed Jane being the Earth Mother, but the ending with Logan? Don't know what to think of that.

[brettc1]

Just read the new issue. I had it for a couple of days, but forgot to read it. I enjoyed the humor in the first story, like Thor living on a tug boat, and Thori laying on his back after eating the shark made me laugh. The art hurt my eyes for the first few pages, but then my brain adjusted to it, and I guess I can live with that for a few issues. The back up story was good. I enjoyed Jane being the Earth Mother, but the ending with Logan? Don't know what to think of that.

Best not to. Especially since the revelation during the Shi'Ar story that Thor dated the Phoenix.

Juggernaut actually seemed seriously depowered this issue.

I'm looking forward to Thor and Loki's road trip to Hel.

[Nick Miller]

I both liked and didn’t like this. I liked and didn’t like the art

Del mundo should have someone else color it though. Much like Bachalo, artist that color their own pages, not as good as a colorist.

[JKtheMac]

I both liked and didn’t like this. I liked and didn’t like the art

Del mundo should have someone else color it though. Much like Bachalo, artist that color their own pages, not as good as a colorist.

He does have some colour assist here, but essentially he works directly in colour. I know his art will always be divisive but those of us that love his work really love it. Wouldn’t really want him to do anything differently. He also adapts his style quite a bit on different books, especially his pallet, so it will be interesting to see how he settles into this book. It seems clear Aaron is already working to his strengths, with a bit more focus on surreal juxtapositions like the monster truck from Hel.

Just read the new issue. I had it for a couple of days, but forgot to read it. I enjoyed the humor in the first story, like Thor living on a tug boat, and Thori laying on his back after eating the shark made me laugh. The art hurt my eyes for the first few pages, but then my brain adjusted to it, and I guess I can live with that for a few issues. The back up story was good. I enjoyed Jane being the Earth Mother, but the ending with Logan? Don't know what to think of that.

I think you are describing a common reaction to his art. It is very jarring when you first see it. It is almost an affront. It will be interesting to see what you think after four issues of getting used to him (it looks like they are building in breaks so he can really go to town and also stay on the book long term.)