Explain the Appeal ~ Hawkman

[Ascended]

Here's a question for Hawkfans:

WHICH Hawkman do you like better? The Golden Age reincarnated Prince Khufu or the Silver Age Thanagarian Katar Hol?

I like both, honestly. Hawkworld is by far my favorite Hawk story though. I don't care what it did to DC's wider continuity; as a stand alone Hawk story it's excellent.

The reincarnation concept is relatively uncommon in comics. You can explore all of DC's history with the Hawks, and Egyptian history and myth is fascinating and really enriches the mythos when used right. Especially if you start working in other characters like Black Adam, Metamorpho, Ra's, Etrigan, Nabu, etc.

But Thanagar is probably one of the most interesting space civilizations in comics. I love the idea of the seven devils and how they influenced society, the fall of the Thanagarian empire.....I love the Stargate vibe to it all, and the fact that for most of its history Thanagar was at least moderately evil. A hero coming from such a place is an interesting story with some serious Elric overtones. The "space cop stuck on earth" angle isn't overly unique or interesting, but Thanagar itself is just so crazy cool I feel you'd be doing a huge disservice to the Hawks if you cut it out.

So I suppose my preference is for the combined origin because both options are too good to pass up, but I honestly am not sure if it's been done to its potential yet. I think Johns did a great job with the mess the Hawks had become post-Hawkworld/Zero Hour, but it still felt disjointed and clunky to me. I think there's a way to fold both versions into one origin that can still be boiled down into an easy-to-swallow bite.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah, that mini is still my favorite and I love the ongoing up until that last arc. The following Hakwman volume was bad in all of the 90s cliche ways. I guess you can say reformatting Thanagar as a gritty takedown of American politics is kind of a clich for its time, but I think it's one of the stories that justified the popularity of taking that sort of angle.

I can't really say I like Carter. And it's weird because Hawkman and Superman are two of my DC favorites, but growing up I thought Superman would be cooler if he seemed more alien and I thought Hawkman was cooler as a "human" American. And I basically switched preferences on both characters. Carter Hall to me is represented in that awkwardly hilarious Smallville tv show appearance. That sort of " don't laugh at me" thing that also kept me away from Aquaman when Johns relaunched him.

[Clairaudient Freedom Soldier]

My favorite variant design of Hawkman, remember him, compeers?

[Sutekh]

Here's a question for Hawkfans:
WHICH Hawkman do you like better? The Golden Age reincarnated Prince Khufu or the Silver Age Thanagarian Katar Hol?

I prefer the reincarnated Egyptian concept, and would love to see it tied into some longer-lived villains, who he may have encountered in previous lives over the centuries, like Vandal Savage and Circe (as well as longer-lived *heroes* that he may have past dealings with, like the Phantom Stranger, Dr. Fate and Dr. Mist/Nommo).

That said, Babylon 5 played with the notion that a human could contain the reincarnation of an alien soul (or vice versa), and it would be interesting to square the circle that way, and have the Thanagarian space cop actually be the reincarnation of a dynastic-era Egyptian, perhaps having been barred by some magical adversary from reincarnating as a human (which the adversary thought would bar him from reincarnating *at all,* but instead just forced his soul to go a little bit further to find a new host, and also served to explain why an alien space cop would inexplicably end up living on Earth full-time, pretty much walking away from Thanagar and his job and family there).

Or perhaps that would be a little too much of some from column A and some from column B, and writers would be more comfortable with two different characters, one reincarnating Egyptian royal and one alien space cop. I still prefer the former. The Green Lantern Corps, among others, kind of have 'alien space cops' locked up, and Earth is already teeming with aliens, ranging from big guns like Superman and Martian Manhunter, to characters like Starfire and Lobo.

[DrNewGod]

When people say they love the Golden Aged Hawkman, it seems that they're really talking about The 2002 "Return of Hawkman" character. Apart from the origin story in Flash Comics #1, writers hardly touched the reincarnation aspect of the original Hawkman until the late 1970s, and even then it didn't really become central to the character until much later. Roy Thomas probably did more with it in All-Star Squadron than all the proceeding writers of the previous 40 years. Seems like the next time it got a real focus was in Robinson and Smith's Golden Age, in 1993.

I tend to prefer the Silver Age Hawks because, especially in their first decade or so, writers seemed to put effort into depicting the advantages and limitations of anti-gravity abilities, rather than just "they got wings and can fly." Plus, Shayera tended to be more thoroughly developed character and equal partner than Shiera (even though she still got stuck with serving coffee and a cover as Katar's secretary). What's more, with their advanced technological skills, The Hawks always seemed to me to have much more to contribute to the JL, putting them more creditably on a par with characters like Green Lantern and Wonder Woman; the Absorbascom alone made them very potentially very powerful.

[DragonsChi]

I just realized I never posted back in this thread. For that I do apologize.

I also want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread! It really help sell me on trying the new Hawkman book and I do not regret it! I hope it helped others as well!

I am now proud to say that Hawkman is one of my favorite DC characters now, at least this version of him. Which is something I never ever thought I would say! I really hope this book keeps going on for at least 100 issues if not more.

I really hope others check out this thread and more importantly pick up Hawkman!

[Frontier]

I just realized I never posted back in this thread. For that I do apologize.

I also want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread! It really help sell me on trying the new Hawkman book and do not regret it! I hope it helped others as well!

I am now proud to say that Hawkman is one of my favorite DC characters, at least this version of him. Which is something I never ever thought I would say! I really hope this book keeps going on for at least 100 issues if not more.

I really hope others check out this thread and more importantly pick up Hawkman!

Happy to hear .

[kingaliencracker]

For me, it was actually the screw-up of Hawkman's continuity post-Crisis that made him so appealing to me, as weird as that may be.

I can't remember exactly how I became aware of the screw-up except that I think I was confused by something that came up in a Superman comic like 30 years ago. But when I researched the issue it got me into the character.

[Ascended]

Someone mentioned the left-leaning politics of Hawkworld, with it's "rich above, poor below" mentality on Thanagar. ( tried to find the post again but it's slipping past me).

Did anyone else pick up on that, because I didn't. Now, I wasn't reading the book and analyzing it through the filter of American politics, but Thanagar never struck me as spouting leftist views. All I saw was a society built on selfish and cruel motivations (the seven devils, the conquering space Empire, etc) where those with the means took the advantages they were able. To me, that's not a political issue, it's a social one, and while there's obvious connections and back-and-forth between social structure and politics (largely one and the same, on many levels) I didn't take Hawkworld to be supporting any particular viewpoint. It was just saying that these people, who were at least a little evil, acted the way you'd expect from such a culture.

[DrNewGod]

Someone mentioned the left-leaning politics of Hawkworld, with it's "rich above, poor below" mentality on Thanagar. ( tried to find the post again but it's slipping past me).

Did anyone else pick up on that, because I didn't. Now, I wasn't reading the book and analyzing it through the filter of American politics, but Thanagar never struck me as spouting leftist views. All I saw was a society built on selfish and cruel motivations (the seven devils, the conquering space Empire, etc) where those with the means took the advantages they were able. To me, that's not a political issue, it's a social one, and while there's obvious connections and back-and-forth between social structure and politics (largely one and the same, on many levels) I didn't take Hawkworld to be supporting any particular viewpoint. It was just saying that these people, who were at least a little evil, acted the way you'd expect from such a culture.

If criticizing fascism makes for "left-leaning," then I guess Hawkworld qualifies.

[Ascended]

If criticizing fascism makes for "left-leaning," then I guess Hawkworld qualifies.

Yeah, I found the opinion to be reaching, personally.

It's HAWK world. So the people in charge are in the sky. Because hawks.

Seriously people, not everything is a commentary attacking your personal beliefs.

[Güicho]

Here's a question for Hawkfans:

WHICH Hawkman do you like better? The Golden Age reincarnated Prince Khufu or the Silver Age Thanagarian Katar Hol?

Golden Age reincarnation kept intact, yet with the Thanagarian Alien origin retroactively moved to before the Golden Age.
Now in modern times, they trace their roots back; reincarnating, through human history, all the way back to ancient Egypt, where they unearth that they originally arrived from Thanagar.

[Hawkman]

Someone mentioned the left-leaning politics of Hawkworld, with it's "rich above, poor below" mentality on Thanagar. ( tried to find the post again but it's slipping past me).

Did anyone else pick up on that, because I didn't. Now, I wasn't reading the book and analyzing it through the filter of American politics, but Thanagar never struck me as spouting leftist views. All I saw was a society built on selfish and cruel motivations (the seven devils, the conquering space Empire, etc) where those with the means took the advantages they were able. To me, that's not a political issue, it's a social one, and while there's obvious connections and back-and-forth between social structure and politics (largely one and the same, on many levels) I didn't take Hawkworld to be supporting any particular viewpoint. It was just saying that these people, who were at least a little evil, acted the way you'd expect from such a culture.

I've said before on these boards that I consider myself a libertarian, and I never felt that way about Hawkworld. If anything, I found it anti-big government and anti-interventionism, which I wholeheartedly endorse.

To be fair, though, people tend to infuse the media they digest with their own politics, for better or worse. I'm sure I'm just as guilty of this with Hawkworld as the guy who found it left-leaning is. If anything it's a testament to Truman's writing that he was able to write something that could appeal to people whose politics are otherwise placed so widely apart.

[bat39]

Personally, more than Hawkman I'm a fan of Hawkgirl, largely because of the JL cartoon. Which is why I also personally prefer the Thanagar origin, at least when it comes to Hawkgirl (with Hawkman, I actually think the Egyptian origin might work better - though that's probably just because that's what has come to define the character for the past couple of decades).

I suppose the iconography of the winged man with a hawk's cowl is an appealing one. On a character level though, I don't really see any one particular core appeal of the character. Rather, I think because of the reincarnation angle and the continuity nightmare, his real appeal is that he is pretty much an infinitely 'malleable' character.

You can portray him as a warrior, a scientist, a detective, or an adventurer. He can be a 'noble savage' or a scholar. He can be a barbarian or a believer in law and order. You can tell supernatural stories, sci-fi stories and straight-up pulpy superhero stories with him.

If I were ever doing a movie or TV adaptation of the Hawks, or even a revamp in the comics, here's what I would do. I would have Carter Hall be the archeologist and explorer who investigates the possibility of aliens visiting Ancient Egypt. He uncovers the tomb of Prince Khufu and discovers the remnants of a crashed Thanagarian ship. He uses the Absorbascon to learn all about Thanagar, the Nth metal, and its weaponry, and fashions a suit based on one of the uniforms he finds there to become Hawkman. Not long after, he meets and gets involved with Kendra Saunders, who eventually turns out to be a deep-cover agent from present-day Thanagar called Shayera Hol...

[DrNewGod]

...I suppose the iconography of the winged man with a hawk's cowl is an appealing one. On a character level though, I don't really see any one particular core appeal of the character. Rather, I think because of the reincarnation angle and the continuity nightmare, his real appeal is that he is pretty much an infinitely 'malleable' character.

You can portray him as a warrior, a scientist, a detective, or an adventurer. He can be a 'noble savage' or a scholar. He can be a barbarian or a believer in law and order. You can tell supernatural stories, sci-fi stories and straight-up pulpy superhero stories with him.

Agreed, and that's always been Hawkman's deal, at least from 1939-1987 (or so). He's one of those that I call an All-Purpose-Superhero. Especially during the Silver-Bronze Age, he could be plugged into almost any story that didn't require arm-wrestling somebody like Darkseid.

If I were ever doing a movie or TV adaptation of the Hawks, or even a revamp in the comics, here's what I would do. I would have Carter Hall be the archeologist and explorer who investigates the possibility of aliens visiting Ancient Egypt. He uncovers the tomb of Prince Khufu and discovers the remnants of a crashed Thanagarian ship. He uses the Absorbascon to learn all about Thanagar, the Nth metal, and its weaponry, and fashions a suit based on one of the uniforms he finds there to become Hawkman. Not long after, he meets and gets involved with Kendra Saunders, who eventually turns out to be a deep-cover agent from present-day Thanagar called Shayera Hol...

That's not a bad idea. It's similar to, but better than what we got from the Nu52.