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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    and you did mention not being a superhero, but that's really how we see these characters. How off would it seem to try summing up Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne without their secret identities?
    I perfectly understand that back in the early days, most heroes were simply templates to build the stories around. I've read a good amount of Golden Age comics and nearly all major Silver Age DC books, including Hawkman's original run. Of course, there's a reason I rarely, if ever, look back at books from these eras, much as I may have loved them as a kid.

    The characters I love are the ones who you could just as easily write a drama or a comedy book/movie about, with 'superhero' simply being their profession.

    And while Supes isn't one of my favorites or even close, unlike Bruce, who is very much defined by his role as Batman (he's not even close to being one of my favorites either) I could pretty easily sum up Clark without getting into Superman. It comes with seeing Clark as the real person and Superman simply as what he does.

  2. #32
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    Gardner Fox got the name "Carter Hall" from a brand of pipe tobacco.



    I imagine Fox himself smoked this brand, as he had a lot of the characters he created smoking a pipe. However, I believe he was also thinking of Howard Carter the famous archaeologist and Egyptologist, which no doubt inspired Hawkman's profession and his origin story. And surely there's no doubt Gardner was also thinking of John Carter. That's clearly Hawkman's lineage--he's a Edgar Rice Burroughs style adventure character.

    While Dennis Neville (the first Hawk artist) and Sheldon Moldoff (who took over the series very early in its run in FLASH COMICS) were reading Alex Raymond's FLASH GORDON and cutting out panels from the strip for their swipe file.





    Fox was so much in love with the Carter Hall name that he didn't give it up for the new series in 1960. Nor did Joe Kubert dare sacrifice the look of Hawkman from the original series (which a teen-age Joe had also worked on later in the 1940s). And the Thanagar origin has more of the science fiction sensibility of John Carter and Flash Gordon than the original Hawkman. It's like the reverse of another Fox creation, Adam Strange (whose concept is entirely lifted from ERB's John Carter). Where archaeologist Adam went from Earth to another planet to become a hero there, the Hawks came to Earth to be heroes here. No wonder they shared the spotlight in MYSTERY IN SPACE for awhile.

  3. #33
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    And while Supes isn't one of my favorites or even close, unlike Bruce, who is very much defined by his role as Batman (he's not even close to being one of my favorites either) I could pretty easily sum up Clark without getting into Superman. It comes with seeing Clark as the real person and Superman simply as what he does.
    *shrug* I've never seen that as quite true of Superman or Batman, even if I don't really like the silver age stories and stuff where they pretty much never behaved like regular humans. I like more modern Superman stuff and every once in a while some Batman, although I don't really like newer Hawkman. I feel that unlike them he peaked before I got into comics.

    Katar and Shayera were different in that they came to Earth as adults and actually did a very good job of establishing normal lives. Kal El landed as an infant and Batman needed that childhood trauma to kickstart his quest. The museum, Midway, Chicago, etc. all belonged to Hawkman Katar over "Carter." The chance to just consider it his job and not his purpose didn't seem to be there.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Katar and Shayera were different in that they came to Earth as adults and actually did a very good job of establishing normal lives. ... The museum, Midway, Chicago, etc. all belonged to Hawkman Katar over "Carter." The chance to just consider it his job and not his purpose didn't seem to be there.
    What you say there interests me, but I'm not certain that I understand your meaning in these comments. I get the part about establishing earth lives, but could you expand on the "chance to consider it his job and not his purpose" part?

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Are there characters who have more personality? Sure, but that’s not why I read Hawkman. I read Hawkman because it’s going to be an adventure filled, ass kicking book.
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  6. #36
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    What you say there interests me, but I'm not certain that I understand your meaning in these comments. I get the part about establishing earth lives, but could you expand on the "chance to consider it his job and not his purpose" part?
    I mean that they're where they are because of Hawkman and Hawkwoman, instead of being Hawks because of where they are. Superman and the other heroes have their identities revolve around what the Earth around them has made them choose. The John Carter influence is really popular on the genre, but Katar and Shayera are the ones who weren't brought to Earth or raised here since infancy.

  7. #37
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    Like many others, I've always liked the visual of 'the big guy with wings'. To me he's iconic in a way that so many other super teams need to have one of these 'winged' guys on the team.

    My favorite version of him was when he wore a darker costume and when he was the Hawk Avatar. In my opinion, that world with so many other avatars running around, provided a great ongoing, and one-time threat, type of cast.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post

    I have to give you this one. I blame Bates and Maggins, who wanted to debate the issues of the day when they were on Justice League of America, and positioned Hawkman (who didn't have a feature, let alone a title, to anchor his persona) as the foil for their mouthpiece, Green Arrow.
    .
    I think it's more accurate to give Len Wein the credit/blame for the Hawkman/Green Arrow feud as they started their antagonism during Len's writing stint, and I'm sure there was a political subtext to it.

    For me, I haven't really cared about Hawkman since Hawkworld came along and threw his entire history into the crapper, and he became just as not-worth-the-effort to follow as Donna Troy, Aquaman, and the Legion as characters who were screwed by reboot-fever following COIE, but in the spirit of this thread, I'll say that Hawkman's main appeal is visual as he does stand out in a JLA lineup shot.

  9. #39
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    The biggest appeal of Hawkman to me, is Hawkgirl.
    Batman - Daredevil

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    LikAnd while I'm sure the few bits of personality traits people have mentioned here do appear in books, pretty much all of my exposure to the character can be summed up as "Short-Tempered Republican' or 'Short-Tempered Creepy Stalker.'

    I have to say it always saddens me how much grief Hawkman gets for the 'Creepy Stalker' bit. He was really RIGHT. Hawkgirl was the broken one, not him. There wasn't a 'fight' or a 'break up'... She literally had lost her memories of their hundreds of lives together.


    In any other situation if a wife gets amnesia and can't remember her husband, her life, her kids... It's not expected that the husband waves goodbye and wishes her well.... he does everything he can to help her remember. Where the 'creepy stalker' thing came from blew my mind. Especially in this day and age where people complain everytime an established marriage is 'broken up' ala Superman, Spider-man, etc just for the sake of 'making them interesting again'. The Hawkman/Hawkgirl team was as Iconic as could be.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I have to say it always saddens me how much grief Hawkman gets for the 'Creepy Stalker' bit. He was really RIGHT. Hawkgirl was the broken one, not him. There wasn't a 'fight' or a 'break up'... She literally had lost her memories of their hundreds of lives together.


    In any other situation if a wife gets amnesia and can't remember her husband, her life, her kids... It's not expected that the husband waves goodbye and wishes her well.... he does everything he can to help her remember. Where the 'creepy stalker' thing came from blew my mind. Especially in this day and age where people complain everytime an established marriage is 'broken up' ala Superman, Spider-man, etc just for the sake of 'making them interesting again'. The Hawkman/Hawkgirl team was as Iconic as could be.
    And it was really only portrayed like that in one book.
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  12. #42
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    He was my favourite Super Powers. I love his mace.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I have to say it always saddens me how much grief Hawkman gets for the 'Creepy Stalker' bit. He was really RIGHT. Hawkgirl was the broken one, not him. There wasn't a 'fight' or a 'break up'... She literally had lost her memories of their hundreds of lives together.


    In any other situation if a wife gets amnesia and can't remember her husband, her life, her kids... It's not expected that the husband waves goodbye and wishes her well.... he does everything he can to help her remember. Where the 'creepy stalker' thing came from blew my mind. Especially in this day and age where people complain everytime an established marriage is 'broken up' ala Superman, Spider-man, etc just for the sake of 'making them interesting again'. The Hawkman/Hawkgirl team was as Iconic as could be.
    You look at it, like Carter did in-story, as if Kendra = Shiera. Had it just been a matter of Shiera having amnesia, Carter would still have handled the situation exceedingly poorly, but he'd be morally in the right. Kendra didn't see it that way though. She wasn't Shiera, and reincarnation or not, she was her own person, and I agreed with her. * She told him "No" repeatedly, it took him far longer than it should have to get it through his thick skull and when he finally did start to listen, his awful behavior continued in the form of pouting and ignoring her, even during missions, upset over the fact that he didn't get a woman he felt entitled too. JSACarter was a PIG.

    *I honestly find the Hawkman mythos as a whole disturbing. Especially as demonstrated with Kendra, the idea of being destined to hook up with someone without any free will in the matter is horrifying and just in general the idea of free will not mattering and something being destined to happen is a story element I almost always hate.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    You look at it, like Carter did in-story, as if Kendra = Shiera. Had it just been a matter of Shiera having amnesia, Carter would still have handled the situation exceedingly poorly, but he'd be morally in the right. Kendra didn't see it that way though. She wasn't Shiera, and reincarnation or not, she was her own person, and I agreed with her. * She told him "No" repeatedly, it took him far longer than it should have to get it through his thick skull and when he finally did start to listen, his awful behavior continued in the form of pouting and ignoring her, even during missions, upset over the fact that he didn't get a woman he felt entitled too. JSACarter was a PIG.
    But the key there... is that Kendra was wrong. She didn't think she was wrong... but she totally was. Legends of Tomorrow was another one that dealt with this and that Carter summed it up pretty well. "You've said that before." Sometimes he finds her first and has to awaken the memories... sometimes she finds him first and has to awaken him... But that 'true love' always shines through regardless of how much one of them didn't think it would happen THIS time...

    and after hundreds of lives over thousands of years... The arguments were pretty hollow. Especially in LoT where they were being actively hunted and she needed her fighting skills NOW... now in 6 months. And what was it? Blackest Night? Brightest Day? Somewhere in there, Kendra WAS gone, and Shiera was back.


    As dumb as the reincarnation thing was in theory... that WAS their life and had been forever.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    But the key there... is that Kendra was wrong. She didn't think she was wrong... but she totally was. Legends of Tomorrow was another one that dealt with this and that Carter summed it up pretty well. "You've said that before." Sometimes he finds her first and has to awaken the memories... sometimes she finds him first and has to awaken him... But that 'true love' always shines through regardless of how much one of them didn't think it would happen THIS time...
    You can say he was right, you can bring up Legends, Hell, you could have Geoff Johns himself tell me he was right*, it ain't gonna change my views. Frankly, if he WAS supposed to be right, than that would extend my dislike of Carter to a sourness toward the whole JSA book.

    *I put very little stock in authorial intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    and after hundreds of lives over thousands of years... The arguments were pretty hollow. Especially in LoT where they were being actively hunted and she needed her fighting skills NOW... now in 6 months. And what was it? Blackest Night? Brightest Day? Somewhere in there, Kendra WAS gone, and Shiera was back.
    It was in Blackest Night and it's one of the numerous reasons I think that story is trash.

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