Would Vernon Van Dyne creating the Wasp have been a better story?

[Michael Watkins]

Hindsight being 20/20, the Avengers needed a female founder. but did they, ultimately, need another clean shaven blonde male? Henry Pym's a fine character. but his contribution to the mythos is all science related. all they needed was a scientist to create a way for people and objects to change size. even Jan could have been introduced as a scientist and retained her flirty personality. but, back then, it would have been seen as unrealistic. she needed a male chaperone, for lack of a better description.

sooo, why not Vernon? he considered Hank to be a peer. he found a way to breach the Kosmos Dimension; where Pym particles are as plentiful as air. there's nothing stopping her from being Giant-Woman for the founding avengers photos. worked for Rita Farr. i bet she would have gotten a solo title, by now. they could have sold her as an answer to Batman; being wealthy, solving crimes, and kicking butt. what's your opinion on it?




p.s. in the interest of equality, I'd write out Scott Lang as well. Cassie could be introduced as a very young cousin of Jan (at some point). she already kind of acts like a spoiled rich girl.

[Digifiend]

Janet definitely stayed as the sidekick for too long. Back in the day, she was a frivolous ditz and she and Hank were a package (she was only created a few months before Avengers launched, and the only other female superheroes in Marvel at the time were Sue Storm and Jean Grey, who were both already on teams). Nowadays, she's running two businesses, is a former Avengers leader, and has been shown to have picked up some of Hank's tech knowledge. If she was created now, of course she'd be more independent from the start.

[Michael Watkins]

Janet definitely stayed as the sidekick for too long. Back in the day, she was a frivolous ditz and she and Hank were a package (she was only created a few months before Avengers launched, and the only other female superheroes in Marvel at the time were Sue Storm and Jean Grey, who were both already on teams). Nowadays, she's running two businesses, is a former Avengers leader, and has been shown to have picked up some of Hank's tech knowledge. If she was created now, of course she'd be more independent from the start.

I just have this bad feeling that she's never going to get out of his shadow. it'd be one thing if she had also been a scientist. but, as is, almost all of what she is came from a co-worker.

[Frontier]

I enjoy Hank and Jan as Founders together, so I can't say I really care for the idea.

Maybe as an Elseworlds interpretation, but even then I think it would be important for Hank to still have some involvement in the Wasp's origin.

I just have this bad feeling that she's never going to get out of his shadow. it'd be one thing if she had also been a scientist. but, as is, almost all of what she is came from a co-worker.

I think a bigger issue is her overcoming the shadow of Marvel promoting a second Wasp for movie synergy.

[Michael Watkins]

I enjoy Hank and Jan as Founders together, so I can't say I really care for the idea.

I get that. but would it be a less entertaining story if it was just Jan suggesting that the team join league up? her interplay with the other characters wouldn't be any different. she'd just be more of an equal. she'd have a life of her own.

Maybe as an Elseworlds interpretation, but even then I think it would be important for Hank to still have some involvement in the Wasp's origin.

I think a bigger issue is her overcoming the shadow of Marvel promoting a second Wasp for movie synergy.

she's in this position because of Hank. how would we have gotten to know her as a solo heroine if she were always part of a duo? and then that messy fall of yellowjacket business; putting her in the position of victim. Nadia doesn't have any baggage. same reason they went with Hope in the movie. he's the anchor dragging her down.

[Da Boat]

Not every female super-hero have to be scientist, Christ.

Janet could have been a scientist too but there was always a huge appeal of Hank and Janet as this husband and wife duo. That's part of the charm. I even think Janet wouldn't have been as appealing without it. Anyway over times she assumed a big Leadership role in Avengers stories.

[Frontier]

I get that. but would it be a less entertaining story if it was just Jan suggesting that the team join league up? her interplay with the other characters wouldn't be any different. she'd just be more of an equal. she'd have a life of her own.

(Shrugs) That's more on the writing then anything.

I doubt modern writers would portray her like she's just Hank's sidekick or not on equal standing with the other Avengers.

Certainly the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon didn't use her that way.

she's in this position because of Hank. how would we have gotten to know her as a solo heroine if she were always part of a duo? and then that messy fall of yellowjacket business; putting her in the position of victim. Nadia doesn't have any baggage. same reason they went with Hope in the movie. he's the anchor dragging her down.

I don't think Hank is really the anchor wearing her down, or any of the baggage associated with that relationship. I don't think that played a big part in the second Wasp thing.

[chamber-music]

Not every female super-hero have to be scientist, Christ.

Janet could have been a scientist too but there was always a huge appeal of Hank and Janet as this husband and wife duo. That's part of the charm. I even think Janet wouldn't have been as appealing without it. Anyway over times she assumed a big Leadership role in Avengers stories.

I agree. I don't think Janet is in anyone's shadow.

Hank and Janet were partners. Janet started off the more junior partner because she had slightly less experience and younger but Janet grew to be a capable hero in her own right. Relationship drama aside, a lot of people like Hank and Janet's superhero partnership which is why it is continually reflected in other media like the movies and cartoon series.

I prefer seeing Janet being a Business woman/entrepreneur than another scientist.

Vernon Van Dyne was just a plot catalyst. His character existed just to spur Janet into action. Lots of superheroes have origins in which a loved one being killed is what sets them on the path to becoming a hero.

[Zero Hunter]

she's in this position because of Hank. how would we have gotten to know her as a solo heroine if she were always part of a duo? and then that messy fall of yellowjacket business; putting her in the position of victim. Nadia doesn't have any baggage. same reason they went with Hope in the movie. he's the anchor dragging her down.

No she is in the position she is in now because of writers like Bendis who didn't like her and sidelined her for years. Jan was at one time one of the top 5 female characters of the Marvel U right along the likes of Jean Grey, Sue Storm, and Storm. Then She was killed off in lame story and not used for too many years, and then to add insult to injury they created a knock off version to better synch with the movies. Some of her best apperences were after Hank had left and she was the leader of the Avengers.

She only became a victim when that hack Chuck Austen decided that the "slap" is the only important moment in her whole history and other lame writers ran with it.

[leokearon]

I don't know but it might be better than Jan's first appearance which is ridiculous.

Speaking of Vernon has he even be mentioned since his death

[Michael Watkins]

Not every female super-hero have to be scientist, Christ.

Janet could have been a scientist too but there was always a huge appeal of Hank and Janet as this husband and wife duo. That's part of the charm. I even think Janet wouldn't have been as appealing without it. Anyway over times she assumed a big Leadership role in Avengers stories.

1. Read the thread title. Vernon is the scientist.

2. You must not remember the circumstances of their marriage.

[Michael Watkins]

I agree. I don't think Janet is in anyone's shadow.

Hank and Janet were partners. Janet started off the more junior partner because she had slightly less experience and younger but Janet grew to be a capable hero in her own right. Relationship drama aside, a lot of people like Hank and Janet's superhero partnership which is why it is continually reflected in other media like the movies and cartoon series.

I prefer seeing Janet being a Business woman/entrepreneur than another scientist.

Vernon Van Dyne was just a plot catalyst. His character existed just to spur Janet into action. Lots of superheroes have origins in which a loved one being killed is what sets them on the path to becoming a hero.

That's my point. He's the catalyst for the Wasp. Why not be the full catalyst. I don't need Janet to be a scientist. Although no one complained when her ultimate counterpart played that role. Anyways, why do you think that she hasn't had a solo or much focus? Nadia is a recent introduction. Explain the decades of neglect.

[Michael Watkins]

I don't know but it might be better than Jan's first appearance which is ridiculous.

Speaking of Vernon has he even be mentioned since his death

Only in the various flashbacks to her introduction to Pym. He was a vehicle for them to meet. What's strange is that Vernon and Henry have different fields of study.

[chamber-music]

That's my point. He's the catalyst for the Wasp. Why not be the full catalyst. I don't need Janet to be a scientist. Although no one complained when her ultimate counterpart played that role. Anyways, why do you think that she hasn't had a solo or much focus? Nadia is a recent introduction. Explain the decades of neglect.

Not sure why she hasn't been given a crack at a solo title. Marvel decides which characters they want to push and Janet for some reason doesn't rank highly on their list.

Ultimate Janet being a scientist was completely unmemorable. It didn't add much to the character. Ultimate Janet was a mutant that ate bugs and made larval nests. That Janet was also bulimic. She was in a far more violent and volatile abusive relationship hank than her 616 counterpart was. All that stuff overshadowed that version of the character.

[DragonsChi]

....I am not sure I will ever understand peoples need to radically change what came before. The reason these books are even still around is due to the quality that has been given originally, said quality being respected, and then ADDED upon. Not by changing it to something else entirely.