Would Vernon Van Dyne creating the Wasp have been a better story?

[Michael Watkins]

Not sure why she hasn't been given a crack at a solo title. Marvel decides which characters they want to push and Janet for some reason doesn't rank highly on their list.

Ultimate Janet being a scientist was completely unmemorable. It didn't add much to the character. Ultimate Janet was a mutant that ate bugs and made larval nests. That Janet was also bulimic. She was in a far more violent and volatile abusive relationship hank than her 616 counterpart was. All that stuff overshadowed that version of the character.

point being that she was, arguably, more qualified than 616 Janet to be a founding member of a superhuman operative team. she wasn't just there as Hank's girlfriend. and she had a reason to hang around after he was booted from the team. Janet's a founding Avenger. if that's not a good enough reason for a solo then what is?

[Michael Watkins]

....I am not sure I will ever understand peoples need to radically change what came before.

because sometimes it's necessary to tell the best story. Chris Claremont took a weak concept and made it the X-Men that we're most familiar with/the kind of material that you can spin off into a live-action movie.

[Mary Jay]

Hindsight being 20/20, the Avengers needed a female founder. but did they, ultimately, need another clean shaven blonde male? Henry Pym's a fine character. but his contribution to the mythos is all science related. all they needed was a scientist to create a way for people and objects to change size. even Jan could have been introduced as a scientist and retained her flirty personality. but, back then, it would have been seen as unrealistic. she needed a male chaperone, for lack of a better description.

sooo, why not Vernon? he considered Hank to be a peer. he found a way to breach the Kosmos Dimension; where Pym particles are as plentiful as air. there's nothing stopping her from being Giant-Woman for the founding avengers photos. worked for Rita Farr. i bet she would have gotten a solo title, by now. they could have sold her as an answer to Batman; being wealthy, solving crimes, and kicking butt. what's your opinion on it?

p.s. in the interest of equality, I'd write out Scott Lang as well. Cassie could be introduced as a very young cousin of Jan (at some point). she already kind of acts like a spoiled rich girl.

I would argue that I like the story the way it was written. The core concept of Janet is to become a superhero to avenge her father's death, which she did. In this quest, she asked for the help of the only man she thought could help her: Henry Pym.

Together, they fought crime and injustice, founded the Avengers and were a power couple as much up there as Sue and Reed were back in the days, for a good 20 years. She continued on her own and became one of the best leaders of the Avengers. When she reunited with Hank in WCA, they were equals, sharing leadership since no one else was stepping up for it, and none of them put shadow on the other. Same thing during Busiek's run.

Could the story have been written otherwise? Probably, but the same thing could be said for any story. But the way the story was written gave Janet a purpose, an objective and the drive to keep on going. Your scenario doesn't account for this at all. Just a girl turned into a superhero by her father for... reasons?

Hank Pym is not just "another clean-shaven blond male". He's not like any of the other founding Avengers, who themselves are not like anybody else. They are all different, and they brought a special dynamics to the team. I don't see why he would have to go.

[Michael Watkins]

I would argue that I like the story the way it was written. The core concept of Janet is to become a superhero to avenge her father's death, which she did. In this quest, she asked for the help of the only man she thought could help her: Henry Pym.

Together, they fought crime and injustice, founded the Avengers and were a power couple as much up there as Sue and Reed were back in the days, for a good 20 years. She continued on her own and became one of the best leaders of the Avengers. When she reunited with Hank in WCA, they were equals, sharing leadership since no one else was stepping up for it, and none of them put shadow on the other. Same thing during Busiek's run.

Could the story have been written otherwise? Probably, but the same thing could be said for any story.

but the question is "would it be a better story?" Jan being an more independent and self-motivated costume vigilante employing her deceased father's experiments to sting fear into the criminal underworld; better or worse than Jan being the flightly partner & eventual romantic interest of an already established supergenius? as is, she was only created as a foil to Henry Pym. it could have gone another way. Hank was sort of a last minute creation. it could have very well been Bee-Man. personally, i think a Wasp Woman solo heroine might have been really cool. but i wanted to get the perspective of other readers. when i think of Pym's role in her life and the Avengers, i can't say that he's essential. Stark could have created Ultron. and Jan didn't really need to get married. she seems more than comfortable with just flirting with whatever attractive male is around. Hank's the large guy in the back of group photos (when it's not Clint Barton). i think Jan could have replicated that role.

[Mary Jay]

but the question is "would it be a better story?" Jan being an more independent and self-motivated costume vigilante employing her deceased father's experiments to sting fear into the criminal underworld; better or worse than Jan being the flightly partner & eventual romantic interest of an already established supergenius? as is, she was only created as a foil to Henry Pym. it could have gone another way. Hank was sort of a last minute creation. it could have very well been Bee-Man. personally, i think a Wasp Woman solo heroine might have been really cool. but i wanted to get the perspective of other readers. when i think of Pym's role in her life and the Avengers, i can't say that he's essential. Stark could have created Ultron. and Jan didn't really need to get married. she seems more than comfortable with just flirting with whatever attractive male is around. Hank's the large guy in the back of group photos (when it's not Clint Barton). i think Jan could have replicated that role.

It would have been a different story, but not a better one IMO. By today's standards, it's easy to look at this and say that Jan could have been a self-made woman, but in the 60s, I'm not sure she would have lasted long, unfortunately.

I get what you're saying, but I tend to think the other way. Yes, Jan started out as the flighty partner and romantic interest, but she grew so much since those days. I think this is more inspiring than what your scenario suggests. To grow as a person, to become more than what you were before and to become a force not to mess with is way more inspiring to me as a woman.

This seems to me a classic case of taking down a character to try to promote another one... Janet is an awesome character by herself, in a duo and in a team. Her story is inspiring and motivating. No need to erase anyone to "make her story better".

[Michael Watkins]

fair enough. independence didn't seem to hurt Wonder Woman, though.

[DragonsChi]

because sometimes it's necessary to tell the best story. Chris Claremont took a weak concept and made it the X-Men that we're most familiar with/the kind of material that you can spin off into a live-action movie.

Chris Claremont didn't change around the history of what came before he ADDED to it.

Historically, with comics, when writers come in thinking they have a better idea's for a characters origin/history it ends up weakening the characters mythos as a whole. Then the concept fails entirely, in most cases.

[Michael Watkins]

Chris Claremont didn't change around the history of what came before he ADDED to it.

Historically, with comics, when writers come in thinking they have a better idea's for a characters origin/history it ends up weakening the characters mythos as a whole. Then the concept fails entirely, in most cases.

he more or less rewrote Magneto and threw out the characters people generally associated as the X-Men.

[Digifiend]

Hank was sort of a last minute creation.

No he wasn't. They introduced him as a one-shot scientist like so many others that featured in those old anthology comics. But then Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man were hits, and they decided to bring him back as a superhero. That's how Ant-Man was created. It was an accident, but it wasn't rushed. About a year later, they introduced Janet, and shortly after that one of the other comics (Daredevil, I think?) missed a deadline and they rushed out Avengers in it's place - so had Janet not existed, the Avengers would've simply been all male.

[Michael Watkins]

No he wasn't. They introduced him as a one-shot scientist like so many others that featured in those old anthology comics. But then Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man were hits, and they decided to bring him back as a superhero. That's how Ant-Man was created. It was an accident, but it wasn't rushed.

wow. then i gave his creator too much credit. the costume's a classic. but the story is quite sloppy.

[Mary Jay]

wow. then i gave his creator too much credit. the costume's a classic. but the story is quite sloppy.

I dunno, I thought it was good. More happened in one issue than in an entire run nowadays

[DragonsChi]

he more or less rewrote Magneto and threw out the characters people generally associated as the X-Men.

????

Did you read Claremonts early run? Beast, Jean, Cyclops, Angel, and Professor X were all used. Havok and Polaris had their moments as well.

He also did not rewrite Magneto. He added more to the characters story. If anything Chris Claremont is a prime example of what actually works when bring more/adding to characters and their mythos. Not radically changing them.

[Michael Watkins]

????

Did you read Claremonts early run? Beast, Jean, Cyclops, Angel, and Professor X were all used. Havok and Polaris had their moments as well.

He also did not rewrite Magneto. He added more to the characters story. If anything Chris Claremont is a prime example of what actually works when bring more/adding to characters and their mythos. Not radically changing them.

you seriously think that he didn't radically change Magneto?

[DragonsChi]

you seriously think that he didn't radically change Magneto?

There was nothing radical about it. Again I ask....have you read the early All-New X-Men books by Claremont?

So far you have been incorrect on just about everything with this conversation.

[Michael Watkins]

There was nothing radical about it. Again I ask....have you read the early All-New X-Men books by Claremont?

So far you have been incorrect on just about everything with this conversation.

yeah, I'm done with you.