Will It Work?

[The Dying Detective]

I think the difference is in sort of wanting to know something, and demanding information never before asked about a very specific subject someone doesn't really like.


For instance, I may not have cared about the naming of the Dinobots but now I demand the number of UK citizens who thought Slag was offensive enough for Hasbro to change his name to Slug. And then keep insisting on it when people say, "Because that's what Hasbro said has been brought up as a concern." "Well, show me the numbers. I don't see how this is unreasonable."

Fine whatever I just started this thread to talk about may be a bad business decision yet something is wrong with that.

[uebersoldat]

The only people who feel these books are "destroying the brand" are bigots.

Kindly give me your opinion on what is more realistic from the below picture (for science):



Savvy?

[Skedatz]

Fine whatever I just started this thread to talk about may be a bad business decision yet something is wrong with that.

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the question. The other poster was talking about the insistence and focus on metrics nobody has access to and why.

I took some of the criticisms laid against you as why don't you ask this of any other relaunched titles or writers with low sales, and when an option is offered a question with insistence on metrics which are never given out.

[The Dying Detective]

I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the question. The other poster was talking about the insistence and focus on metrics nobody has access to and why.

I took some of the criticisms laid against you as why don't you ask this of any other relaunched titles or writers with low sales, and when an option is offered a question with insistence on metrics which are never given out.

Yeah fine but when i oppose people's belief that somehow these two titles managed to make money they don't seem all that happy.

[Skedatz]

Yeah fine but when i oppose people's belief that somehow these two titles managed to make money they don't seem all that happy.

I believe that stems more from the, "The direct market doesn't suggest it did well," and the response of, "It wasn't the direct market where all the money was made," and then just going back and forth on that.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Your view is the direct market is an indicator of how well a comic does both in the LCS level and maybe in a greater sense, but others see it as the digital and other outlet markets simply not being the same as the direct market.

[Prof. Warren]

Yeah fine but when i oppose people's belief that somehow these two titles managed to make money they don't seem all that happy.

Will you express the same level of concern for Marvel's decision making when they inevitably relaunch Iron Fist, even though his last solo failed every bit as much as Iceman or Wasp's? Will you also worry that a new Iron Fist will fail to make money for Marvel? Or will you not even blink at that announcement?

Probably the latter, right?

And on what possible grounds are you opposing the belief that those titles made money for Marvel? If it's easier for you to grasp at conspiracy theories and speculate about imaginary shady motivations than to just accept that these books likely made money through channels you're unaware of, don't be surprised if people give you grief about it.

[skyvolt2000]

Iceman likely got a second wind in trade. I heard that it cracked the top 100 LGBT books on Amazon (where it certainly has a lot more engagement with reviews and the like than "top sellers" like X-Men Gold).

For LGBT books-its top 50 and the ONLY Marvel title there.

So why not aim for Scholastic not the direct market which is suicide for these titles. Particularly Unstoppable Wasp.

Because you are talking about the school system for the most part.
I work in the school system and I can TELL you a lot of those books did not SNIFF a school fair and heck we could not order them.

I put it to you like this at one point the only books we could order was Batman, Superman, WW, Batgirl (Babs version before Killing Joke), Fantastic Four, Power Pack, Daredevil, Hulk and Peter Parker.
Of that group-ONLY and I mean ONLY Fantastic Four had kids reading them.
Who is missing from that list? Mind you this was during 2002-2007 era.
So if I wanted say Hudlin's Panther or cartoon Teen Titans trades-I HAD TO BUY THEM OUT OF MY WALLET and NOT get reimbursed.

And the magazines that do book reviews and recommendations for schools to buy books- DO NOT TALK ABOUT SUPERHEROES. Jason Reynold's Miles Morales novel is the ONLY time I have seen a review in that magazine.

But the thing is during the start of Cebulski's tenure as editor in chief Unstoppable Wasp and Iceman got canned and then he decides to send them out again these had been doing well then why can them in the first place?

Because sometimes you don't get the sale data back in time. Also when they got the ax-whose movie was destroying the box office? Black Panther and when you went to Amazon to look at superhero trade sales-the top 100 was NOTHING but Black Panther. And that movie energy also boosted Thor and GOTG trades.

Now the numbers are cooling off and now we see the numbers-at least on Amazon.

[Kintor]

Will you express the same level of concern for Marvel's decision making when they inevitably relaunch Iron Fist, even though his last solo failed every bit as much as Iceman or Wasp's? Will you also worry that a new Iron Fist will fail to make money for Marvel? Or will you not even blink at that announcement?

I think that if a new Iron Fist book was announced today it would be controversial news. Marvel has had so many bad books lately that don't even make it to 12 issues, fans are sick of it. What's needed are sure-fire hits, to restore confidence in the entire line. Frankly, it looks like Wasp and Iceman are just being sent out to die. Marvel needs new editors who could stop these clear failures before they are even announced, it's either that or let the accountants step-in and start firing people.

[skyvolt2000]

Wasn't there a pretty long and detailed post on why "diversity" books weren't killing Marvel?

Aaron's Thor was consistently one of the top books and there are dozens of "non-diversity" titles that sunk pretty badly.

Yes and comic book store owners were talked to.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/...d-in-2018.html

Declining Foot Traffic
■ Julie Sharron, staff, the Secret Headquarters: I’ve talked to friends with different kinds of retail stores, not necessarily comics, and it’s the same thing for them this year: people just aren’t coming in; it’s a wider retail thing.
■ Leef Smith, owner, Mission Comics: My sense is that consumers are being more careful about their spending, and shifting spending online.There are a lot of people worried about the future and the economy suddenly tanking. I’ve seen many people trying to save more money, picking up three books and putting back two.

“A Content Crash” and the Need for Diversity

■ Wise: I’ve read a lot of complaints this year about the concept of diversity [encouraging the proliferation of characters, books, and creators that reflect a variety of ethnic backgrounds and social experiences] and how it’s hurting retailers. That just sounds ridiculous to me. Your store should be welcoming to anyone who wants to read comics. Whatever your politics, all of these categories are a growing demographic for our product, and if you don’t want to sell to them somebody else will. Send them to my store—I’ll take the business.

■ Jeff Ayers, general manager, Forbidden Planet: I have never agreed with [the antidiversity arguments] that retailers are making. We do quite well with titles like America [about a Hispanic superheroine] and Moon Girl [a black preteen superhero series created by Amy Reeder]; that is not what’s bringing down sales. Lady Thor comics sell better than when regular Thor was in Thor. Lady Thor brings in excitement and has a built-in audience anyway.

■ Sharron: Some of the same dudes have been working on the same DC books for 30 years. Maybe shake it up a little. I think Marvel’s done a better job [creating diverse characters] but it’s still like five dudes who write almost every Marvel book. The dudes rotate, and [comics writer] Donny Cates is on a bunch of books and I like him, but you don’t want to read the same sh*t by the same people over and over.

Bestsellers and Bright Spots
But pay attention to the world outside of the [comics shop] market [which is dominated by books from superhero publishers]. My Favorite Thing Is Monsters made every best-of list last year and was covered in Entertainment Weekly and the New York Times, and lots of other noncomics markets. If you don’t have it in stock I guarantee you Barnes & Noble and Amazon will. Don’t order that 17th Deadpool special or nonessential big event [superhero] crossover this month, and put some of that money into something that may attract a new readership.

This could've been an opportunity to acknowledge the failure of the original Wasp and Iceman runs, the customer is always right after all.

Iceman & Wasp had longer runs than Solo, Foolkiller, Slapstick, Hercules & Black Knight. So Marvel should acknowledge their failures and thus send them to limbo right?

[Triniking1234]

Gwenpool by Christopher Hastings confirmed due to high sales on Amazon.

[skyvolt2000]

It was a myth that diversity "killed" Marvel.

It's something that's been discussed to death here but the fact is that things and society at large are changing. I understand that some people are firmly opposed to these changes but Marvel HAVE to try and diversify it's audience. What people fail to understand is that it's not a zero-sum game, Marvel publishing minority/female led titles doesn't take away from the likes of Captain America, Thor, Hulk and Iron Man, it just means that people that don't want to read these characters are catered to.

If Marvel chose to pander and get rid of every single POC, LGBT & woman lead book and tossed out white straight male only books.
Who makes up the sales loss for Panther, Miles, Ms Marvel, Moon Girl and the rest?

Solo? Slapstick? Nova? Cyclops? Guys who had runs that didn't last long.
OH wait because they FAILED before they don't get another shot according to some here. Because they FAILED before and the customer is always right.

And WAIT-isn't the complaint that some don't want to see these POC, LGBT & women in book at ALL?
So no Storm, Black Widow, Carol Danvers, Panther, Miles and so on.

So what happens next???

Why are Valiant, Lion Forge and Black Magic diverse books are suddenly moving UP in sales?
If this doesn't happen-what will store owners complain about next?

When FEW folks come into the store. When those pull lists get lighter.
Oh and what about the REAL world reaction?

When your actions do not reflect the actual data Marvel is privy to along with Amazon sales.
That Disney stock goes DOWN.
Suddenly your movie profits go down.
Suddenly your losing POC, LGBT & women creators to other networks.

I know it sound far fetch.

Marvel knows they can't do that.

Because they know SOMEONE will step up and get those readers and now you are fighting them along with DC.

You want everyone to come to YOU for entertainment. So you don't leave folks out and that is real business sense.

[Skedatz]

Gwenpool by Christopher Hastings confirmed due to high sales on Amazon.

But...but... The direct market?!?!

[Prof. Warren]

I think that if a new Iron Fist book was announced today it would be controversial news. Marvel has had so many bad books lately that don't even make it to 12 issues, fans are sick of it. What's needed are sure-fire hits, to restore confidence in the entire line. Frankly, it looks like Wasp and Iceman are just being sent out to die. Marvel needs new editors who could stop these clear failures before they are even announced, it's either that or let the accountants step-in and start firing people.

The previous Iron Fist run was not bad at all. In fact, it was quite excellent. It didn't last long, no. But then, neither did the original Iron Fist run. which only lasted 15 issues back in the mid-'70s. So titles that only last for a short runs are nothing new. There are no "sure fire hits." Everything is a gamble.

The only true way to fail is to play it safe. Because you never know when a book that previously failed, like an X-Men, will be relaunched and become a raging success.

[nickytesla96]

I think that if a new Iron Fist book was announced today it would be controversial news. Marvel has had so many bad books lately that don't even make it to 12 issues, fans are sick of it. What's needed are sure-fire hits, to restore confidence in the entire line. Frankly, it looks like Wasp and Iceman are just being sent out to die. Marvel needs new editors who could stop these clear failures before they are even announced, it's either that or let the accountants step-in and start firing people.

Sure-fire hits would involve the only books being Batman, Superman, Justice League, Amazing Spider-Man, and [insert event here] though. A book being good or bad has very little to do with what survives.

[nnelg]

In light of Marvel's new editor in chief C.B. Cebulski's revelation to diversify their line in spite of their Fresh Start which promised a back to basics approach. (Which was supposed to be the point of their Legacy initiative) Will it work when they brought back the same writers whose series failed and got canned after a while?

No it won't. Hiring the same hacks to do the same job won't change things. Also art sells. Marvel need to hire good artist. Good artist cost money though. Hire EVS, Epting and Cho just to name a few. Also hire back writers that have proven themselves in comics by writing them in the past like Chuck Dixon, Mike Carey and Joe Casey to name a few.