Punisher #226 Secret Empire Sequel. Spoilers

[jackolover]

I was looking forward to the meeting between Punisher and Zemo after their little dalliance together as partners in Secret Empire. I see Zemo as an unpowered villain in the MU, who has to deal with super powers the heroes have and he doesn’t. There is a certain affinity between Nick Fury and Zemo in this respect because Zemo and Fury are both coomon people who live in a world of specials (super humans).

Frank Castle on the other hand, doesn’t much care about super heroes, and runs around with Arsenal full of killing tools like a butcher with a sack full of knives. So when I see that Frank is seeking out Zemo and Frank is sore that he sided with Zemo in Secret Empire, it’s going to be an interesting conversation in that Frank brought his predicament on himself, trying to impress Hydra Cap, so why Frank is targeting Zemo needs to be addressed. And what did Frank say? Zemo did all the talking, Punisher was all purpose in getting rid of Hydra. But Frank did find out one thing. The return of Hydra Nation, and that gives Frank purpose, because Frank is trying to eradicate his connection to Secret Empire, as far as I can see in this story.

Spoilers

Frank in the War Machine armour steals info on Zemo from CIA headquarters and agents can’t stop him. He arrives at the Hydra Nation headquarters and there is Zemo in a force field Frank can’t shoot through. In pops Ghost, Crossbones and Taskmaster, and they tear off the armour. In pops Winter Soldier, Mockingbird, Hawkeye, and Black Widow, and Zemo and Crew escape. Nat blasts Clint and Bobby and her and Frank leave with the armour, to hunt down Hydra Nation

End of Spoilers.

I wanted some connection between Zemo and Frank to know what motivated Frank to be Zemos buddy, but Frank is a closed book, and it’s left to Zemo to describe their relationship. I’m left with thinking I’d love to see Zemo and Frank join up.

[CentralPower]

For whatever reason, people talk about recent issues of the Punisher in the dedicated "Punisher appreciation thread".

(I know this is an oddity for these forum. But, objectively, it makes more sense than endless gibbering about decades-old minutia and posting scans from comics published 30+ years ago.)

http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?261-War-Zone-Punisher-Appreciation/page46"]http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?261-War-Zone-Punisher-Appreciation/page46

I wanted some connection between Zemo and Frank to know what motivated Frank to be Zemos buddy, but Frank is a closed book, and it’s left to Zemo to describe their relationship. I’m left with thinking I’d love to see Zemo and Frank join up.

The point of of this run is to distance Punisher from Hydra and "Secret Empire". Have the Punisher fight Hyrdra lets Marvel unambiguously show that the character is no longer a member.

On page, the reason that the Punisher joined Cap's Hydra was that Hydra was going to fix the world (and bring the Punisher's family back from being dead...through the magic of McGuffins).

Even in the Bronze age, when comics were more jabbery over-all, the Punisher was focused on the moment, rather than monologing or explicating ad nauseam about their origins or motivations that were already covered.

[Rosebunse]

We've seen Frank not take the chance to bring his family back before, which means I feel like there was more to his joining HYDRA than just that. I feel like a lot of it came down to his feeling vindicated by his hero, Captain America, finally agreeing with him, finally realizing that he could be useful. I don't think Frank hates superheros. He definitely sees them as idiots and fools, but I don't think he actually hates. More like resents that they won't let him into their club.

[Tony Stark]

I think since Rosenberg has taken over Frank that The Punisher has been if not the best then one of the best books on the market. Easily. I still hate that they made Frank join Hydra. I think that was straight bullshit., but everything after has been a hell of a ride.

[Tony Stark]

We've seen Frank not take the chance to bring his family back before, which means I feel like there was more to his joining HYDRA than just that. I feel like a lot of it came down to his feeling vindicated by his hero, Captain America, finally agreeing with him, finally realizing that he could be useful. I don't think Frank hates superheros. He definitely sees them as idiots and fools, but I don't think he actually hates. More like resents that they won't let him into their club.

I don't think Frank ever wants to join the super hero club. As you've stated in thinks they are fools and idiots.

[jackolover]

For whatever reason, people talk about recent issues of the Punisher in the dedicated "Punisher appreciation thread".

(I know this is an oddity for these forum. But, objectively, it makes more sense than endless gibbering about decades-old minutia and posting scans from comics published 30+ years ago.)

http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?261-War-Zone-Punisher-Appreciation/page46"]http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?261-War-Zone-Punisher-Appreciation/page46




The point of of this run is to distance Punisher from Hydra and "Secret Empire". Have the Punisher fight Hyrdra lets Marvel unambiguously show that the character is no longer a member.

On page, the reason that the Punisher joined Cap's Hydra was that Hydra was going to fix the world (and bring the Punisher's family back from being dead...through the magic of McGuffins).

Even in the Bronze age, when comics were more jabbery over-all, the Punisher was focused on the moment, rather than monologing or explicating ad nauseam about their origins or motivations that were already covered.

Thanks for the insight on why Punisher doesn’t monologue.

I would just like to explore what Frank saw in Hydra Nation because we’ve already seen he doesn’t think bringing his family back is an option as seen in the Frankenstein arc. Zemo represents Hydra Nation, and the fact Frank stood for them too, intrigues me, especially as Zemo has no super powers like Frank doesn’t, and, they are both very powerful in other ways to compensate for that.

[jackolover]

I don't think Frank ever wants to join the super hero club. As you've stated in thinks they are fools and idiots.

But there is that respect for the hero’s, and when Punisher joined Caps team in Civil War, it was a respect he had never experienced in himself, to be on Caps team. The psychology we are talking about of a man (Frank) being outside the heroes fraternity, is a huge weight on his soul, being the lone man doing what he does - kill people.

The examination of the differences between Zemo and Punisher are that these characters are very parallel. I think Zemo now starts to approach Dr Doom as a character with more depth than we give him credit for. Frank may not see himself too different from Zemos mission.

[Michael Watkins]

oh please. Zemo has been deeper than Doom for a long time now. hasn't anyone read Born Better?

[Tony Stark]

But there is that respect for the hero’s, and when Punisher joined Caps team in Civil War, it was a respect he had never experienced in himself, to be on Caps team. The psychology we are talking about of a man (Frank) being outside the heroes fraternity, is a huge weight on his soul, being the lone man doing what he does - kill people.

The examination of the differences between Zemo and Punisher are that these characters are very parallel. I think Zemo now starts to approach Dr Doom as a character with more depth than we give him credit for. Frank may not see himself too different from Zemos mission.

I have read every single Punisher comic there is. He does NOT want to be in the Super Hero club. To him that are clowns not doing what they need to do to criminals. He basically out right say's it.

[Rosebunse]

Well, yeah, Frank says it, but he still hangs around them quite a bit. He was even invited to and attended Deadpool's wedding. He looked like he had a lot of fun.

FrankenCastle isn't just a story that examines Frank's need for violence by murdering his family himself, but also his own need for meaningful social relationships. Sure, he ultimately rejects all of them, but the fact is, deep down, Frank needs people around him just like everyone else. And if we're hinest, the superhero community is the easiest place for him to find it, even fleetingly.

Frank didn't join HYDRA because he believed in them. He joined because he felt like he was finally being recognized and respected by a community that thought as badly of him as he thought of it.

[Tony Stark]

Well, yeah, Frank says it, but he still hangs around them quite a bit. He was even invited to and attended Deadpool's wedding. He looked like he had a lot of fun.

FrankenCastle isn't just a story that examines Frank's need for violence by murdering his family himself, but also his own need for meaningful social relationships. Sure, he ultimately rejects all of them, but the fact is, deep down, Frank needs people around him just like everyone else. And if we're hinest, the superhero community is the easiest place for him to find it, even fleetingly.

Frank didn't join HYDRA because he believed in them. He joined because he felt like he was finally being recognized and respected by a community that thought as badly of him as he thought of it.

Frank isn't looking for friendships or another family. We just agree to disagree.

[CentralPower]

I would just like to explore what Frank saw in Hydra Nation because we’ve already seen he doesn’t think bringing his family back is an option as seen in the Frankenstein arc.

Spencer is not the same writer as Remender. Two different writers, two different comics. (Maybe two different editorial directives.)

oh please. Zemo has been deeper than Doom for a long time now. hasn't anyone read Born Better?

Yes. And, "Thunderbolts". But, Marvel undid most of that well before "Secret Empire", setting Zemo back to standard bad guy. Zemo depth was temporary.

Well, yeah, Frank says it, but he still hangs around them quite a bit. He was even invited to and attended Deadpool's wedding. He looked like he had a lot of fun.

It depends who is writing the comic. (And, "Deadpool" is not a definitive source for anything other than Deadpool.)

[jackolover]

I have read every single Punisher comic there is. He does NOT want to be in the Super Hero club. To him that are clowns not doing what they need to do to criminals. He basically out right say's it.

Yes, I know. But how do you explain Frank aiding the Renegade Avengers in Civil War? Frank should have just laughed in their faces, but instead, he came bearing gifts (Frank helped break into The Fantastic Four HQ)

[Tony Stark]

Yes, I know. But how do you explain Frank aiding the Renegade Avengers in Civil War? Frank should have just laughed in their faces, but instead, he came bearing gifts (Frank helped break into The Fantastic Four HQ)

He helped the Avengers in Civil War because Tony and those guys were using villains. Frank killed 2 of them right in front of Cap. That's how he got kicked out. He doesn't care about super heroes or their opinions.