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  1. #1
    Retired Admin (1998-2020) Matt's Avatar
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    Default Recommended column: Greg Hatcher on Toxic Fandom

    I don't do this often so I hope that gets across just how worthwhile I think this is.
    Greg Hatcher, familiar to so many CBRians, has put together a wonderful piece on toxic fandom and why it needs to be squashed.

    http://atomicjunkshop.com/social-justice-warriors/
    "Let me guess. My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie!"
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  2. #2
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Good looking out.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for the link.
    Itīs a well thought article and itīs for sure something that i think the same about the toxic fandom.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Vinsanity's Avatar
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    True that toxic fandom is everywhere and it sucks.

    I wish Facebook, and Twitter took a better stance on bullying and it is so sad that the issues in those 50's comics are still an issue.

  5. #5
    Retired Admin (1998-2020) Matt's Avatar
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    It is a stand that I am proud that the CBR Forums has taken; that we don't allow space for folks such as gamergate, the sad puppies, comicsgate and so on.
    "Let me guess. My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie!"
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  6. #6
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    Thing is though, more people escape into the world of superheroes for the fantasy of not being as weak or impotent as they currently feel. The moral lesson isn't the real hook. Just a feel-good "bonus" of sorts. And compounding matters is the unspoken message that unfortunately stems from that: "you can only afford to be compassionate/empathetic/positive/etc IF you can bench press a continent, or manipulate the very fabric of reality, or really any amazing thing that the 'normies' cant do - as well as being able to shrug off what would easily annihilate them." So therefore, when an established hero that an overzealous fan identifies with gets replaced by someone markedly different, it feels to the fan in question like he/she got callously robbed of the one refuse in the sea of uncertainty that is real life. And so blood begins to boil.....
    Last edited by Ragged Maw; 06-17-2018 at 04:50 AM.

  7. #7
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Default Fandoms VS. Creators (over content, and creative directions)

    Ok so, there's been a lot of talk about "Toxic Fandoms" and the such. But i want to touch on upon the division that tends to come up between entitled fandoms of (books, games, tv shows, music, and films) and creators of said properties, in terms of content and ideas. The fans want one thing but the creators have their own ideas on how things should go. If you listen to half the complaint you would think that writers don't know what they're doing anymore (i'm looking at you fans of The Walking Dead, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones lol). There's SO MANY disgruntled fans when it comes to plot points and story direction its almost impossible to discuss the work itself because the discussion is filled with people complaining about how something didn't turn out how they wanted. When it comes to tv shows i give it 2 or 3 seasons before fans start dissenting about direction and plot holes that aren't really plot holes but pet peeves. Ob the other hand writers don't listen and tend to double down on whet they're doing for better or worse.

    So what's the problem here? are writers out of touch with the fans, or fans just feel like they have better ideas?


    For music it's the same issues, music artists are trying to walk a fine line of pleasing the fans, while simultaneously trying to be creative, and grow with their own art. But can you really do both?

  8. #8
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    There's nothing wrong with expressing displeasure or disappointment with a work of art or an entertainment product. The problem is that some fans seem to think that creators owe them something on a personal level. So when a creator/company puts out a bad comic, movie, song etc, instead of just saying, "Wow, this sucks...the older stuff was better," some fans go, "This is slap in my face! I am insulted that this does suit my personal tastes!"

  9. #9
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor-of-Dragons View Post
    Ok so, there's been a lot of talk about "Toxic Fandoms" and the such. But i want to touch on upon the division that tends to come up between entitled fandoms of (books, games, tv shows, music, and films) and creators of said properties, in terms of content and ideas. The fans want one thing but the creators have their own ideas on how things should go. If you listen to half the complaint you would think that writers don't know what they're doing anymore (i'm looking at you fans of The Walking Dead, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones lol). There's SO MANY disgruntled fans when it comes to plot points and story direction its almost impossible to discuss the work itself because the discussion is filled with people complaining about how something didn't turn out how they wanted. When it comes to tv shows i give it 2 or 3 seasons before fans start dissenting about direction and plot holes that aren't really plot holes but pet peeves. Ob the other hand writers don't listen and tend to double down on whet they're doing for better or worse.

    So what's the problem here? are writers out of touch with the fans, or fans just feel like they have better ideas?


    For music it's the same issues, music artists are trying to walk a fine line of pleasing the fans, while simultaneously trying to be creative, and grow with their own art. But can you really do both?
    Social media, of course, causes this to feel exaggerated. For instance, back in 1977, there was one person I knew who didn't like "Star Wars" and he told me so while everyone else loved it.

    In 2018, every person who doesn't like the new Star Wars stuff goes and tells everyone they can on their Internet blogs and forums while the silent majority that spends hundreds and hundreds of millions on the movies just votes with their ticket purchases.

    "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is another example. People generally loved the first three seasons but it then went in a different direction and wasn't the show they were originally interested in which is fine. But suddenly it has plot holes that were always there even in the seasons they liked or are imagined plot holes.

    A lot of it is just that it goes in a direction that someone doesn't like. Consider that when you look at most fan reviews of movies, they rate either 4 stars (or whatever the maximum is in the system) or zero. It's nothing more than their personal preference for how they wanted it to go.

    But again, I think it's always been this way. The Internet just gives people a means to express it which in turn causes them to be preoccupied with it.
    Power with Girl is better.

  10. #10
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    There's nothing wrong with expressing displeasure or disappointment with a work of art or an entertainment product. The problem is that some fans seem to think that creators owe them something on a personal level. So when a creator/company puts out a bad comic, movie, song etc, instead of just saying, "Wow, this sucks...the older stuff was better," some fans go, "This is slap in my face! I am insulted that this does suit my personal tastes!"
    Well, and that, to a lot of people "bad" and "Doesn't suit my personal tastes" are synonymous.
    Power with Girl is better.

  11. #11
    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    Excellent article. It does a good job articulating the nonsense of what's going on.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragged Maw View Post
    Thing is though, more people escape into the world of superheroes for the fantasy of not being as weak or impotent as they currently feel. The moral lesson isn't the real hook. Just a feel-good "bonus" of sorts. And compounding matters is the unspoken message that unfortunately stems from that: "you can only afford to be compassionate/empathetic/positive/etc IF you can bench press a continent, or manipulate the very fabric of reality, or really any amazing thing that the 'normies' cant do - as well as being able to shrug off what would easily annihilate them." So therefore, when an established hero that an overzealous fan identifies with gets replaced by someone markedly different, it feels to the fan in question like he/she got callously robbed of the one refuge in the sea of uncertainty that is real life. And so blood begins to boil.....
    Did you actually read what I wrote? Because that is a perfect example of the "yeah, but..." rationalization and it's horseshit. I've often been disappointed by a new direction in a favorite hero series. At no point EVER was I motivated by that to stalk people online. I don't care how badly you want things changed back the way they were.... chances are the new direction, if it's as bad as you say, will self-correct once people react to it. And if it doesn't, you still have the one you liked. My dislike of Elementary in no way negates my enjoyment of The Sign of the Four. The piece of **** that is Altman's Long Goodbye film adaptation is not in any way damaging to Chandler's original novel. And so on. Whatever I may think of the James Bond film franchise, and it's blown hot and cold over the years, Ian Fleming's novels are just as amazing to me today as they were when I found them at age twelve. The originals are not harmed by new pastiches. They're just not.

    Scrape the paint off that defense and what you get is immaturity and naked greed. "Yeah, but..." the new stuff is not what *I* want. It's not what *I* think it should be. No one should like it. The perpetrators must be scolded and punished.

    Think about that. The sheer brass of the entitlement on display. The pathology that leads someone to act out their anger over it online. We're talking doxxing, death threats, constant twitter barrages... It's not in ANY WAY an expression of devotion. Stop pretending it's anything other than the sociopathy it is.
    You can find a bunch of books I wrote stories for here. The weekly column is here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Hatcher View Post
    Did you actually read what I wrote? Because that is a perfect example of the "yeah, but..." rationalization and it's horseshit. I've often been disappointed by a new direction in a favorite hero series. At no point EVER was I motivated by that to stalk people online. I don't care how badly you want things changed back the way they were.... chances are the new direction, if it's as bad as you say, will self-correct once people react to it. And if it doesn't, you still have the one you liked. My dislike of Elementary in no way negates my enjoyment of The Sign of the Four. The piece of **** that is Altman's Long Goodbye film adaptation is not in any way damaging to Chandler's original novel. And so on. Whatever I may think of the James Bond film franchise, and it's blown hot and cold over the years, Ian Fleming's novels are just as amazing to me today as they were when I found them at age twelve. The originals are not harmed by new pastiches. They're just not.

    Scrape the paint off that defense and what you get is immaturity and naked greed. "Yeah, but..." the new stuff is not what *I* want. It's not what *I* think it should be. No one should like it. The perpetrators must be scolded and punished.

    Think about that. The sheer brass of the entitlement on display. The pathology that leads someone to act out their anger over it online. We're talking doxxing, death threats, constant twitter barrages... It's not in ANY WAY an expression of devotion. Stop pretending it's anything other than the sociopathy it is.
    I'm outlining the stream of thought (or rather, insecurity) behind this sort of behavior and why it's thrived online; not justifying it. My fault for not making that explicit.
    Last edited by Ragged Maw; 06-17-2018 at 10:12 AM.

  14. #14

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    I understand that you are not advocating for the bad behavior. My point is more that explaining it as fannish overreacting, even in an academic, process-recognizing way, carries the implication that it is excusable. It's not. It has no relation to fandom, not even some kind of distorted devotion. It's nothing but creepy. It's on exactly the same plane as John Hinckley and his professed devotion to Jodie Foster. We need to call it by its real name if we're going to make any headway at all.
    You can find a bunch of books I wrote stories for here. The weekly column is here.

  15. #15
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    Usually in these situations it's a case of one bad apple spoiling the whole barrel.

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