Recommended column: Greg Hatcher on Toxic Fandom

[Iron Maiden]

Excellent column. I used to think franchises like Star Trek or Star Wars would be the last place one would find a "fan" who could post the kind of things Greg showed in his article. smh. Sadly this is not the case.

[Greg Hatcher]

Usually in these situations it's a case of one bad apple spoiling the whole barrel.

Okay. And?

The issue isn't whether or not they're in the majority. The issue is that they are loud and pushy and of late they are forming packs and escalating their attacks to real life.... and most of us fan community internet types are fairly diffident, soft-spoken, and introverted. We're not good with bullies.

When I was a moderator here we had ENDLESS discussions about whether or not to ban this or that bullying loudmouth who was tearing up the place; usually the creep had a devoted following who looked adoringly on him much as a beaten wife looks on her abusive husband, equating getting slapped around on the boards as an expression of devotion. Meanwhile us moderators worried endlessly about being fair and any reprimand to the offender was met with cries of Suppression! Free speech! Censorship! and, of course, You guys are Nazis! Ask the old-time Rumbles guys about the cult of ChuckG sometime. As far as I could tell the only thing that guy was GENUINELY a fan of was arguing and endless hostility. And he was tame compared to what we have online today.

It's not enough any more to just say "it's only a few." They're doing real harm. I know it seems like I'm coming off as prickly and hostile and I truly don't mean to... but I have seen this litigated ENDLESSLY online, including over a decade here as a mod. None of the stuff we were begging the site owner to do got implemented until the thing with Janelle Asselin-- who had the TEMERITY to suggest that DC over-sexualizing the Teen Titans, most widely known then as a beloved kid's cartoon, was a poor marketing choice given all the kids out there who would love a new comic-- went viral and blew up into a horror you could see from space. By then I'd moved on but I'd bet you a year's pay against a stale bagel that the mods spent weeks agonizing over what to do and that's why it spiraled out so bad. Instead the owner wiped the boards and started over, with the rules in place we'd been begging him for.

My idea is now we've SEEN what these people are, so why waste the time agonizing over it? You see that **** in your community, airlock them right away. It's BEEN litigated. The evidence is in. They're trolls. Lose them.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Okay. And?

The issue isn't whether or not they're in the majority. The issue is that they are loud and pushy and of late they are forming packs and escalating their attacks to real life.... and most of us fan community internet types are fairly diffident, soft-spoken, and introverted. We're not good with bullies.

When I was a moderator here we had ENDLESS discussions about whether or not to ban this or that bullying loudmouth who was tearing up the place; usually the creep had a devoted following who looked adoringly on him much as a beaten wife looks on her abusive husband, equating getting slapped around on the boards as an expression of devotion. Meanwhile us moderators worried endlessly about being fair and any reprimand to the offender was met with cries of Suppression! Free speech! Censorship! and, of course, You guys are Nazis! Ask the old-time Rumbles guys about the cult of ChuckG sometime. As far as I could tell the only thing that guy was GENUINELY a fan of was arguing and endless hostility. And he was tame compared to what we have online today.

It's not enough any more to just say "it's only a few." They're doing real harm. I know it seems like I'm coming off as prickly and hostile and I truly don't mean to... but I have seen this litigated ENDLESSLY online, including over a decade here as a mod. None of the stuff we were begging the site owner to do got implemented until the thing with Janelle Asselin-- who had the TEMERITY to suggest that DC over-sexualizing the Teen Titans, most widely known then as a beloved kid's cartoon, was a poor marketing choice given all the kids out there who would love a new comic-- went viral and blew up into a horror you could see from space. By then I'd moved on but I'd bet you a year's pay against a stale bagel that the mods spent weeks agonizing over what to do and that's why it spiraled out so bad. Instead the owner wiped the boards and started over, with the rules in place we'd been begging him for.

My idea is now we've SEEN what these people are, so why waste the time agonizing over it? You see that **** in your community, airlock them right away. It's BEEN litigated. The evidence is in. They're trolls. Lose them.

My point is it goes from a couple of fans who should be outed for being creeps to "Star Wars fans are misogynists bullies" and now you have a large group of people painted with a broad brush that should have been reserved for a few, now everyone's getting defensive and it turns into a shitshow tribalism spat. Same thing with Gamergate.

You always are going to have jerks on the internet who revel in anonymity that get off on being able to be bullies. All you can do is take it case by case and ban/moderate appropriately. At some point you just have to say "okay this guy crossed the line, he's gone". Like I agree with your overall premise. Screw them get rid of them once they reveal themselves.

The issue is a lot of these types tend to be harbingers for a cause that's relevant to people and because they are the biggest personalities in the room they become the focal point of the discussion and it ends up sweeping everyone in it.

[Carabas]

Usually in these situations it's a case of one bad apple spoiling the whole barrel.

That still leaves you with a whole spoilt barrel of bad apples, not just the original bad apple.

[skyvolt2000]

My point is it goes from a couple of fans who should be outed for being creeps to "Star Wars fans are misogynists bullies" and now you have a large group of people painted with a broad brush that should have been reserved for a few, now everyone's getting defensive and it turns into a shitshow tribalism spat. Same thing with Gamergate.

Now you know what People of color deal with everyday.

How do you think we got #livingwhileblack on Twitter.

And I get what you are saying-why does everybody have to be lumped in? Because normal folks who happen to like Star Wars or comics in generally-yet don't do messgeboards-have no idea any of this is going on. Until it hits mainstream media. Especially when the targets are POC, LGBT & certain women and the attacks seem to come from ONE set of folks.

His point of the article is the time is now to weed these folks out.

[The Negative Zone]

Writers often are fans.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Can i play the devil's advocate for a bit?


Sometimes i feel like show runners/producers/studios or whatever hold works hostage. Fans will demand a certain thing, but they will refuse to give it to them. Instead they give fans ultimatums like "If you want this thing, you better support this other thing". To me that's hostage taking lol. People want a Bobba Fett movie, but nah here take this Solo movie instead. I feel that Hollywood shockingly ignores supply and demand. Reminds me of how slow FOX was to make a Deadpool movie.

I also think certain fandoms can become too big and mainstream, causing the writers to try and appeal to too many people. That causes problems too, especially tv shows. I also believe that yeah writers have their own ideas. That's the real reason why a lot of adaptations are so bad., the writers think they have better ideas Hollywood could make money sooooo easily if they just listen to want fans want, but they just don't want to.

Music fans just want the same album over and over again lol

Some of this is a case of "Death of the Author" as well just applied to all mediums.

[Matt]

I've merged two threads as they seemed to be pretty much the same topic.

[Skedatz]

Now you know what People of color deal with everyday.

Pretty good way to compare it.

People want a Bobba Fett movie, but nah here take this Solo movie instead. I feel that Hollywood shockingly ignores supply and demand.

There's no universe where Boba Fett was somehow more asked for than Han Solo on any general curve.

People are always clamoring about Han Solo and Disney catered directly to that crowd. Boba Fett, while popular, is not nearly as popular. There's no hostage making there.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Pretty good way to compare it.


There's no universe where Boba Fett was somehow more asked for than Han Solo on any general curve.

People are always clamoring about Han Solo and Disney catered directly to that crowd. Boba Fett, while popular, is not nearly as popular. There's no hostage making there.

Fine, but still....i stand by the hostage taking in general though. That was just one thing i thought of. And from what i experience not a lot of folks was asking for Solo either.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I have heard of the gamer gates , comics gates etc....but never the sad puppies. That is a new group i hadn't heard about. Do they post sad puppy pictures to show anger at seeing Finn in Star Wars now ?

[Matt]

The Sad Puppies are the equivalent of GG and CG but in science fiction circles. They went to huge trouble to corrupt the results of the Hugo Awards a while back, as they thought that their favourite white straight authors were being short changed in favour of black/gay/whatever writers.

[kjn]

I have heard of the gamer gates , comics gates etc....but never the sad puppies. That is a new group i hadn't heard about. Do they post sad puppy pictures to show anger at seeing Finn in Star Wars now ?

The Sad Puppies started was an short-lived movement originating with a few science fiction authors who felt that the Hugo Awards needed to return to their roots of pulp adventure. In 2013, the first year, it was led by Larry Correia, and didn't make much of a splash. A lot of the public message was that "elitist literary snobs" had come to dominate the Hugos; in reality it was pushing for more white men writing science fiction along straight-forward adventure lines.

In 2014 the message were somewhat radicalised, but ran on the same lines, that "literati" among science fiction publishing (and the Worldcon members, who choose and nominate the Hugos, but which have no real connection with the publishing houses) were somehow hijacking the awards. This year, he also included Vox Day, a truly bad neo-fascist author among his voting slate.

Generally speaking, the impact on the Sad Puppies was rather small in 2013 and 2014.

2015, Brad Torgersen took over responsibility for the Sad Puppies voting slate effort. His message again turned somewhat more political:

[T]he voting body of ‘fandom’ have tended to go in the opposite direction: niche, academic, overtly to the Left in ideology and flavor, and ultimately lacking what might best be called visceral, gut-level, swashbuckling fun … To that end, SAD PUPPIES has basic objectives: Get works and authors onto the Hugo ballot who might not otherwise be there; regardless of political persuasion.

This year, Vox Day also took on the role of organising the Rabid Puppies, which can be said to be the meaner and more organised big brother of the Sad Puppies. His message was much more overtly political, fervent, and energising, and as a result much of the 2015 Hugo ballot was dominated by truly bad fiction.

In 2016, the Sad and Rabid Puppies once again had little impact due to a huge effort in nomination activity among the general Worldcon membership. Once again, the Rabid Puppies provided the more effective in promoting their voting slate. And last year changes in Hugo nomination rules meant that their impact was still felt but limited to their size relative the general electorate.

(Both the Sad Puppies and the Rabid Puppies used a weakness in the system used to nominate works for the Hugo. It used the first-past-the-post system, which meant an organised minority could dominate a more diffuse majority. The system used to determine the winner used the Australian voting system together with the option for "No award", which led to "No award" winning in a land slide in puppy-dominated categories.)

To me, the Sad Puppies were a rallying signal for a group of white, heterosexual, conservative (in US terms) men, in pushing back against what they perceived as dominance in the field for other groups. They also became a vehicle for their own radicalisation, bringing in alt-right groups like GamerGate into sf fandom (which thankfully seems to have left now). They were also fundamentally flawed since most of the works they pushed varied between "OK read" to "truly atrocious" on a writing level.

[dancj]

Well, and that, to a lot of people "bad" and "Doesn't suit my personal tastes" are synonymous.

They kind of are synonymous. "bad" is so completely subjective that I can say "Celine Dion's music is bad" and I'll be right. Someone else (certainly not me - to be clear) can say "Celine Dion's music is good" and they'll also be right.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I've merged two threads as they seemed to be pretty much the same topic.

No they weren't Matt lol, y'all are talking about controversy-gates and ****, i was talking about fans and how they relate to creative choices made by creators. There's some overlap but we're talking about 2 different things, Merging the two derailed my thread. YOU RUINES IT!!!!