Batman: Prelude to the Wedding: Red Hood Vs Anarky #1 Preview / Discussion

[Aahz]

Seeley actually drew a pretty nice comparison between Jason and Lonnie that I suppose I hadn't really noticed before, their similar backgrounds and what-not.

But he retconned Lonnies background for it. Lonnie is (or was) imo more similar to Tim Drake. Only thing that connects him with Jason, is that he also has very different moral code from Batman (but also from Jason).

And I don't feel like what Lonnie did was really in line with the classic version of Anarky.

It is also odd how the fight between the two went, Lonnie isn't really much of a thread for any Batfamily member.

[millernumber1]

But he retconned Lonnies background for it. Lonnie is (or was) imo more similar to Tim Drake. Only thing that connects him with Jason, is that he also has very different moral code from Batman (but also from Jason).

And I don't feel like what Lonnie did was really in line with the classic version of Anarky.

It is also odd how the fight between the two went, Lonnie isn't really much of a thread for any Batfamily member.

I think Seeley was drawing from the background in Manapul/Buccelletto's Detective run for Lonnie's background.

[Aioros22]

But he retconned Lonnies background for it. Lonnie is (or was) imo more similar to Tim Drake. Only thing that connects him with Jason, is that he also has very different moral code from Batman (but also from Jason).

And I don't feel like what Lonnie did was really in line with the classic version of Anarky.

It is also odd how the fight between the two went, Lonnie isn't really much of a thread for any Batfamily member.

If Loonie`s background is retconned then that`s the game you`re playing. I think the connection was a simple but effective one and what Jason does at the end proves why he`s the better kid from the streets. Unlike Loonie who requires validation to feel like an individual, Jason has walked the hardest path, with or without support.

And Loonie wasn`t physical threat. All he did was take advantage of Jason pausing the beatdown for a second and use his staff on the support so he would fall off.

[Aioros22]

Gotta say, the thing I had some issues about the book was the Artemis "anti-Feminist" scene. Heavy handed and without the cultural nuance about what constitutes anti-feminist today. When the current wave goes off to act like entitled elitists looking for new reasons to throw at men, being "anti-Feminist" isn`t being anti-women or equal human rights and citizenship.

I get it, it was because the party had male strippers but it was too on the nose.

[millernumber1]

Gotta say, the thing I had some issues about the book was the Artemis "anti-Feminist" scene. Heavy handed and without the cultural nuance about what constitutes anti-feminist today. When the current wave goes off to act like entitled elitists looking for new reasons to throw at men, being "anti-Feminist" isn`t being anti-women or equal human rights and citizenship.

I get it, it was because the party had male strippers but it was too on the nose.

I thought it was funny (and I'm definitely not a feminist). An Amazon WOULD probably have those feelings about someone who called themselves an anti-feminist, even if there is more nuance.

And I think the point of the comic was that everyone should be willing to live together, instead of punching people who disagree. Which is why Jason didn't ask Artemis to come punch the gangs.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

If Loonie`s background is retconned then that`s the game you`re playing. I think the connection was a simple but effective one and what Jason does at the end proves why he`s the better kid from the streets. Unlike Loonie who requires validation to feel like an individual, Jason has walked the hardest path, with or without support.

And Loonie wasn`t physical threat. All he did was take advantage of Jason pausing the beatdown for a second and use his staff on the support so he would fall off.

But that is precisely why the whole thing was a mess. The whole point of Anarky's character is that he was an idealistic kid who saw something wrong with society and that decided to do something about it. Turning him into a wimp that needs to be accepted is completely missing the point of his character. And if you won't use the character as it was conceptualized, why use him at all?

[millernumber1]

But that is precisely why the whole thing was a mess. The whole point of Anarky's character is that he was an idealistic kid who saw something wrong with society and that decided to do something about it. Turning him into a wimp that needs to be accepted is completely missing the point of his character. And if you won't use the character as it was conceptualized, why use him at all?

I mean, you'd have to go back to Manapul and Buccelletto's version of the character, which I think has influenced both Tynion and Seeley in their uses of Anarky. But I think it's a natural progression from what we've seen till now, to what we see here.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Anarky has been horribly mishandled by every creative team since Grant left.

[Aioros22]

But that is precisely why the whole thing was a mess. The whole point of Anarky's character is that he was an idealistic kid who saw something wrong with society and that decided to do something about it. Turning him into a wimp that needs to be accepted is completely missing the point of his character. And if you won't use the character as it was conceptualized, why use him at all?

I`m going to take a wild guess and say that, Grant`s writting and work aside, a character whose main appeal is counter-culture will suffer from real world cultural shifts. The cultural war of the 90s is not the culture war of today.

[Aioros22]

And yes, I agree that the character can work best, aside from the dogmatic angle, to be the hero of his own story and not a technical minion, even if the reason for it is laid out in the story.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I`m going to take a wild guess and say that, Grant`s writting and work aside, a character whose main appeal is counter-culture will suffer from real world cultural shifts. The cultural war of the 90s is not the culture war of today.

Is one thing to be counter culture and other very different to be forced into the role of ineffectual villain because writers can't be arsed to make an effort.

And even then, Anarky's original ideologies have as much vigency now as they had 20 years ago.

[gregpersons]

There are some things I like about Seeley, but he's more "miss" than "hit" in this Prelude series.

Anarky / Lonnie is not a liberal socialist, lol, in any shape or form. White supremacist, anti-feminist, socialist. The only way those 3 ideas make sense together is if "socialist" is like in the USSR or Mao's China version of "socialist" which is actually not socialist at all but totalitarian dictatorships.

Socialist = the workers control the means of production. Lonnie actively wants to take power away from people and give to a select few, namely himself. It's just a complete misunderstanding and misuse of the term that is really annoying to see in a comic book, and takes you out of the story, which was already difficult to swallow.

Seeley's version of Selina in Robin and now in this, is just... really rough, and very much written from an old man perspective who has no real concept of how to write for women.

Thankfully, Joelle Jones and King both have a great handle on Selina and will be shaping her stories. But seeing Seeley write her, it reminds me how almost no one except for Grant Morrison could write Damian's voice at first (aside from Tomasi who got it pretty quick)... except Catwoman has been around for 70 years.

The Gotham TV show has a much clearer idea of Selina then Seeley does, to name just one example where Seeley could've looked for ideas in how to shape or write for the character.

I could MAYBE buy Selina doing this type of bachelorette party if we could understand her thought process a bit more, but to my eyes, it just looks like Seeley being like "uh yeah its uhhh a bachelorette party cuz uhh women right? Sex and the City." Imagine if Bruce were out clubbing with the boys. It just doesn't compute for the character.

Have we ever met her friends before? Who were those women? Were they from that weird late-Ballent period in the NML 90s/early 2000s when Selina ran for mayor of Manhattan or something? I have no recollection of ever seeing them before.

I guess it does make it harder since her one long-time established friend, Holly, has become a mass murderer. Is she in jail? she didnt leave Talia's place in Rules of Engagement, so did she say no to Selina? im guessing so? otherwise, Bruce and Selina marrying would be fine -- she's a socialite, and has a presence at the galas and things. She's his date to the opera in Hush. They've been in public together. The only thing preventing it is that Selina is accused of murdering 200 people and I guess everyone knows she's Catwoman.

However. That STILL fits with Bruce Wayne's public image. He funded Batman Inc. He brokered a deal to pay a bounty for Batman during the War of Jokes and Riddles.

Bruce Wayne, eccentric playboy, he's been to the moon, he funds the JL Watch Tower, he funds Batman Inc., he funds Victims Inc -- it is not at all out of line for Bruce Wayne to marry Selina Kyle/Catwoman, for the fun of it, and still not give away his identity as Batman more than he already has.

It has sort of gotten to the point where all of Bruce's family and allies are superheroes in their own right that he could conceivably just do the Iron Man thing and be like "Yeah obviously I am Batman. And I am Bruce Wayne. I shape this city with my wealth and with my abilities, working together with the government/GCPD, and held accountable to you, at my offices at Wayne Tower, which is the official public-facing version of the Bat Cave (and merchandise shop). Guarded by Bat-bots."

The Bruce Wayne who funded Batman Inc would absolutely be a viable husband for Selina/Catwoman -- if she weren't accused of murder still. Bruce was accused and jailed for murder, and his name was cleared. It's fine. It happens in Gotham, all the time. Jim Gordon was framed for murder at some point.

What I'm saying is I wish "Prelude to the Wedding" focused more on loose ends like Holly Robinson, and the public versions of Selina/Bruce, things like that. The fanboy-ish questions you see on message boards.

Instead, the series has been ALL OVER THE PLACE tonally and with characterization. I'd have preferred a "Prelude" series that starred Selina more, with the Robins making cameos, rather than the other way around.

[JLH]

I don't get the PKOW at the end. Did Jason hit Anarky and walk away?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I don't get the PKOW at the end. Did Jason hit Anarky and walk away?

Yes, he hit Anarky because for his fault Jason owes Bruce 150k.

As always, Seeley can't write Jason as anything but a petulant child.

[SiegePerilous02]

Finally picked this issue up today, haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

As someone who doesn't care about Anarky at all, I don't anticipate anything to ruin my enjoyment on the characterization front. Besides, it sounds like Seeley was just being consistent with what other Rebirth writers established?

Seeley's version of Selina in Robin and now in this, is just... really rough, and very much written from an old man perspective who has no real concept of how to write for women.

Dude's not old, at all, and his larger body of work would beg to differ on the writing women thing. There isn't one way to write women, because no two human beings are alike in general. Cassie Hack, Cat Curio, Margaret Crump, Linda Marsh, Dana and Martha Cypress, Louise Cale, Weaver Fannie, Sara Pezzini, Chondra Jackson, Melba Li and Polly Peachpit, to name a few, are all pretty layered and distinct from each other.

Thankfully, Joelle Jones and King both have a great handle on Selina and will be shaping her stories. But seeing Seeley write her, it reminds me how almost no one except for Grant Morrison could write Damian's voice at first (aside from Tomasi who got it pretty quick)... except Catwoman has been around for 70 years.

Catwoman being around for 70 years means there is no consistency for how to write her voice. None of the major characters that have been around that long have it, beyond general broad strokes. I haven't read this issue yet, but I saw nothing out of the ordinary in the first issue with her bonding with her future step-son. Was she supposed to be mean or snarky towards him or something?

I have no issue with King's handle on Selina at all either, personally, but more than a few have noted some difficulty with how he writers her voice (especially all the "Cat/Bat" and "Meow" stuff).